Radar and chartplotter systems

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

Thanks Greg for that detailed response. I actually have an Airmar in the boat… but I don’t know if it’s new enough to be compatible with the newer generation of plotters etc. It’s paired up with my H1000 MFD (not chartplotter). My intent is to have comprehensive equipment and if it’s integrated then all the better (I imagine). My current thoughts are somewhere between B&G and Raymarine. If I can use components are existing I’d prefer. Like I have a linear drive hydraulic ram autopilot (H1000). I’d hope I can keep the mechanical portion as it’s not particularly old. But my new system will need to be an autopilot, Radar, AIS, and chartplotter. I will also want the typical environmental information for wind, speed and depth (as I have now).

If your Airmar transducer is both old and smart (like many CF members?) then it is probably using NMEA 0183. If it is the old analog interface then best to replace it with a smart N2K transducer. If it is 0183 then either buy a 0183-N2K converter or, better yet, just replace it with N2K and sell the old one. Or if the new MFD has an available 0183 input port then just attach it there and consider upgrading at a later date. [Edit: look for a tag on the cable from the transducer and it should have the model number, which can be looked up on the Airmar site.]

I would not change your autopilot if it is working well. It is probably taking wind, XTE, waypoint and route info over 0183 and as long as your new MFD can provide that then it should work fine. It would require keeping the separate control head, but you should anyway. You do not want your AP depending on your MFD to operate. It is cute to be able to control it from the MFD but far from necessary.

Greg

[nofacey]

Great thread - thx Jedi for AMEC WIDELINK B600 CLASS B SOTDMA AIS TRANSPONDER - had missed that capable, low cost option. That, with the wifi option, fills a hole in my iPad based coastal cruising system

[MJH]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

Hey everyone! Wife and I just acquired an 81 Gulfstar 44cc. It has some decent (yet obsolete) navigation gear. Our goals are to sail from the Great Lakes up and around to the Caribbean in about 4 years. That being the case some equipment has to be added for true safety (radar, AIS). Currently the boat has linear drive B&G H1000 autopilot with display and one H1000 display for depth and wind instruments. For navigation an old Garmin GPS map 498 (told you it was old). Originally I thought that I could just upgrade the control systems to later legacy B&G (A&T instruments) then maybe some of my items can still work. Then, all I’d need to get was a stand Alone AIS transceiver and use an iPad for navionics or some other navigation ap. But, seeing that sailing in the northern Atlantic above Nova Scotia in late summer could mean thick fog… Radar is likely now a necessity… now this changes the playing field significantly! Now looking at a chartplotter (at least one) and a new system… I really don’t want to spend 10-15k on electronics… what are some thoughts? We will not be buying for a couple years yet. Want to start forming a strategy and see what tech comes along that might make what’s on market now more reasonable in cost… thanks for your thoughts and input in advance!

Congratulations on your new-to-you boat. Don't be in too much of a hurry. Get to know the boat for a year and take some notes on what it needs to achieve your plans. Navigationally you NEED heading, wind, speed, depth, GPS, compass, laptop/chartplotter, AIS, RADAR, autopilot, and charts. What needs to be added or replaced because it no longer works from this list...that will be your cheapest avenue? Beyond that is a WANT driven by a desire for amenities that are different for different people and easily explainable for boat owners. Anything electronically will be outdated in a year.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by MJH

Congratulations on your new-to-you boat. Don't be in too much of a hurry. Get to know the boat for a year and take some notes on what it needs to achieve your plans. Navigationally you NEED heading, wind, speed, depth, GPS, compass, laptop/chartplotter, AIS, RADAR, autopilot, and charts. What needs to be added or replaced because it no longer works from this list...that will be your cheapest avenue? Beyond that is a WANT driven by a desire for amenities that are different for different people and easily explainable for boat owners. Anything electronically will be outdated in a year.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Thanks! We are definitely not in a hurry. The boat has functional H1000 system with autopilot, heading, wind direction and speed, depth and speed through water… also a Garmin GPS map 498, standard compass, hand held compass and handheld wind speed. I also have an iPad with chartplotter ap. We need Radar and AIS before 2026 season. We will be sailing as much as possible prior to then and am trying to do my due diligence. This thread has helped me a lot.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

If your Airmar transducer is both old and smart (like many CF members?) then it is probably using NMEA 0183. If it is the old analog interface then best to replace it with a smart N2K transducer. If it is 0183 then either buy a 0183-N2K converter or, better yet, just replace it with N2K and sell the old one. Or if the new MFD has an available 0183 input port then just attach it there and consider upgrading at a later date. [Edit: look for a tag on the cable from the transducer and it should have the model number, which can be looked up on the Airmar site.]

I would not change your autopilot if it is working well. It is probably taking wind, XTE, waypoint and route info over 0183 and as long as your new MFD can provide that then it should work fine. It would require keeping the separate control head, but you should anyway. You do not want your AP depending on your MFD to operate. It is cute to be able to control it from the MFD but far from necessary.

Greg

I will take a look at the the transducer… it’s (I believe) an 810 smart. But will confirm.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

I will take a look at the the transducer… it’s (I believe) an 810 smart. But will confirm.

It doesn’t matter if the transducer says Airmar, B&G, Furuno, Simrad etc. because it’s all the same Airmar unit. You want the one with Bluetooth.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It doesn’t matter if the transducer says Airmar, B&G, Furuno, Simrad etc. because it’s all the same Airmar unit. You want the one with Bluetooth.

Functionally they are the same but they often have different proprietary connectors on them. I have cut off connectors and wired them into other vendors' MFDs without issues. I think the smart ones sometimes identify themselves as coming from different product lines but I am unaware of any functional differences.

N2K works fine; why recommend the Bluetooth one? I don't doubt that you have a good reason; I'm just asking you to share your reasoning.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

I actually prefer the Seatalk N2k connector over device net as it’s slightly easier to thread being the same diameter as the cable.

Conversion cables are readily available.

I’ve had Furuno , Ray and Garmin. Ray make the best leisure autopilots in my view and the longevity of the ST 60 range always astound me. Garmins new AP has some serious deficiencies

B&G are all over the place so I don’t rate them.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Functionally they are the same but they often have different proprietary connectors on them. I have cut off connectors and wired them into other vendors' MFDs without issues. I think the smart ones sometimes identify themselves as coming from different product lines but I am unaware of any functional differences.

N2K works fine; why recommend the Bluetooth one? I don't doubt that you have a good reason; I'm just asking you to share your reasoning.

Greg

The Bluetooth one is the latest model. It is nmea2000 but has a BT interface for configuration, calibration etc. instead of forcing one to buy the same brand plotter/display. The one included in the package I linked earlier has this one.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I actually prefer the Seatalk N2k connector over device net as it’s slightly easier to thread being the same diameter as the cable.

Conversion cables are readily available.

I’ve had Furuno , Ray and Garmin. Ray make the best leisure autopilots in my view and the longevity of the ST 60 range always astound me. Garmins new AP has some serious deficiencies

B&G are all over the place so I don’t rate them.

The Ray pilots are descendants from Autohelm, right? I think B&G is way beyond because their units are the direct descendants of the famed Robertson pilots. I actually think they are still made in the same factory in Norway?

[j.g.evans]

A few cost saving comments along the lines of keeping it simple:
I have made 12 trips from NJ to the Bahamas on 2 different boats. I had fog for a few hours one time. New England is a different story, but, it sounds like you are passing through once or twice. I saw no need for radar and all it installed in cost and hassle. I did buy a VHF that provided AIS to a 12" chart plotter. You need only one VHF antenna (top of the mast). This was nice crossing the Gulf Stream, but I had it off most of the time because the collision warnings on the Inter Coastal and passing harbors would drive me nuts. I encountered many boaters with broken radars who said they will not bother to fix them after they had AIS.

I have cruised in New England many times and been caught in fog. I would sail just outside channels and in 10-15 feet of water to avoid big ships. The GPS is all I needed. I did not have AIS then.
I have put all new electronics in my 2 boats. I one I installed Garmin. I had no problem getting their autopilot to interface with an old Autohelm drive. I liked their NEMA 2000 cables and connectors too.
On the second boat I chose Raymarine because it had one modern Raymarine instrument. The Raymarine SeaTalkng connectors and cables are proprietary and thus it is hard to connect with other manufacturer's stuff. SeaTalkng is Raymarine's version of NEMA 2000. I was able splice Garmin and Raymarine networks together by matching color coded wires in the respective cables. My Raymarine network is working with a Garmin chart plotter and GPS. A feature of Raymarine's instruments is they use an ITC-5 box to interface analog transducers to SeaTalkjng. Wind, Speed and Depth are all analog. My network was able to use an existing 200 Khz Depth and a Speed transducer. Therefore you may be able to use some of your old stuff.
I also used a tablet with OpenCPN for a chart plotter when I didn't want to use the 12" Garmin. Tablets are sun light readable only under a bimini. Don't go if you do not have a large bimini. Think about solar panels extending aft of the bimini to provide even more shade. Make the support structure capable of raising the dinghy. Make it high for ocean passages. Include a crane to lift the outboard motor.
Do some of this and just go.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by j.g.evans

A few cost saving comments along the lines of keeping it simple:
I have made 12 trips from NJ to the Bahamas on 2 different boats. I had fog for a few hours one time. New England is a different story, but, it sounds like you are passing through once or twice. I saw no need for radar and all it installed in cost and hassle. I did buy a VHF that provided AIS to a 12" chart plotter. You need only one VHF antenna (top of the mast). This was nice crossing the Gulf Stream, but I had it off most of the time because the collision warnings on the Inter Coastal and passing harbors would drive me nuts. I encountered many boaters with broken radars who said they will not bother to fix them after they had AIS.

I have cruised in New England many times and been caught in fog. I would sail just outside channels and in 10-15 feet of water to avoid big ships. The GPS is all I needed. I did not have AIS then.
I have put all new electronics in my 2 boats. I one I installed Garmin. I had no problem getting their autopilot to interface with an old Autohelm drive. I liked their NEMA 2000 cables and connectors too.
On the second boat I chose Raymarine because it had one modern Raymarine instrument. The Raymarine SeaTalkng connectors and cables are proprietary and thus it is hard to connect with other manufacturer's stuff. SeaTalkng is Raymarine's version of NEMA 2000. I was able splice Garmin and Raymarine networks together by matching color coded wires in the respective cables. My Raymarine network is working with a Garmin chart plotter and GPS. A feature of Raymarine's instruments is they use an ITC-5 box to interface analog transducers to SeaTalkjng. Wind, Speed and Depth are all analog. My network was able to use an existing 200 Khz Depth and a Speed transducer. Therefore you may be able to use some of your old stuff.
I also used a tablet with OpenCPN for a chart plotter when I didn't want to use the 12" Garmin. Tablets are sun light readable only under a bimini. Don't go if you do not have a large bimini. Think about solar panels extending aft of the bimini to provide even more shade. Make the support structure capable of raising the dinghy. Make it high for ocean passages. Include a crane to lift the outboard motor.
Do some of this and just go.

Our passage will be the St Lawrence seaway taking us pretty far north. The timing will be such that I think fog will likely be significant… As in almost a constant. So although it might be doable without Radar we won’t be. We will have the tablets, and the laptops… already do actually. Our center cockpit has a hardtop with enclosure. Our transom will have a solar arch with davits and we already have the outboard crane system. (I’m a fabricator and will be fabricating the arch and systems). Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions… This is why it’s so difficult to figure out… there are a number of ways to go about it. As mentioned before my first big step will be to build a NMEA2k backbone. Then upgrade components as needed to the system till it’s completed. Hopefully they don’t make 2k obsolete in a couple years… 🤞

[s/v Jedi]

Even though I’m tiring of repeating this: AIS is not a replacement for radar. AIS is a virtual representation of reality, while radar is a direct detection of reality.

If AIS shows no targets within a mile then that may be truthfully… or not. All it takes is one target without AIS transponder or with it switched off. Not so for radar.

Also, AIS does not show weather, land, jetties, buoys, SART etc.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Even though I’m tiring of repeating this: AIS is not a replacement for radar. AIS is a virtual representation of reality, while radar is a direct detection of reality.



If AIS shows no targets within a mile then that may be truthfully… or not. All it takes is one target without AIS transponder or with it switched off. Not so for radar.



Also, AIS does not show weather, land, jetties, buoys, SART etc.

Well both are a interpretation of reality , depends on what you value ,radar also “ lie” to you at certain times. Neither are actual reproductions of what’s really out there.

Radar can mis targets , misrepresent them , or be subject to radar shadows. Etc

Keep looking out the window.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by j.g.evans

A few cost saving comments along the lines of keeping it simple:
I have made 12 trips from NJ to the Bahamas on 2 different boats. I had fog for a few hours one time. New England is a different story, but, it sounds like you are passing through once or twice. I saw no need for radar and all it installed in cost and hassle. I did buy a VHF that provided AIS to a 12" chart plotter. You need only one VHF antenna (top of the mast). This was nice crossing the Gulf Stream, but I had it off most of the time because the collision warnings on the Inter Coastal and passing harbors would drive me nuts. I encountered many boaters with broken radars who said they will not bother to fix them after they had AIS.

I have cruised in New England many times and been caught in fog. I would sail just outside channels and in 10-15 feet of water to avoid big ships. The GPS is all I needed. I did not have AIS then.
I have put all new electronics in my 2 boats. I one I installed Garmin. I had no problem getting their autopilot to interface with an old Autohelm drive. I liked their NEMA 2000 cables and connectors too.
On the second boat I chose Raymarine because it had one modern Raymarine instrument. The Raymarine SeaTalkng connectors and cables are proprietary and thus it is hard to connect with other manufacturer's stuff. SeaTalkng is Raymarine's version of NEMA 2000. I was able splice Garmin and Raymarine networks together by matching color coded wires in the respective cables. My Raymarine network is working with a Garmin chart plotter and GPS. A feature of Raymarine's instruments is they use an ITC-5 box to interface analog transducers to SeaTalkjng. Wind, Speed and Depth are all analog. My network was able to use an existing 200 Khz Depth and a Speed transducer. Therefore you may be able to use some of your old stuff.
I also used a tablet with OpenCPN for a chart plotter when I didn't want to use the 12" Garmin. Tablets are sun light readable only under a bimini. Don't go if you do not have a large bimini. Think about solar panels extending aft of the bimini to provide even more shade. Make the support structure capable of raising the dinghy. Make it high for ocean passages. Include a crane to lift the outboard motor.
Do some of this and just go.

Firstly ,any nmea 2k with device net connectors can easily be connected to Seatalkng with the appropriate drop cable widely available. You need a drop cable anyway. I just fitted my standard horizon N2K radio to Seatalkng that way in minutes.



For good nmea 2k performance stay within a single manufacturers range, unless there is a very good reason not to.

In general use a dedicated MFD at the helm, it’s designed for the conditions , a good sunlight screen , bonded , toughened will cost as much as an entry level MFD. keep your laptop or tablet to write your memoirs

These days don’t install receive only AIS waste of time and money. Transmit AiS is where it’s at.

Secondly don’t carry a dinghy on davits for any ocean crossings , ( under 70 foot boat ) you will pay for that decision

[MJH]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

Thanks! We are definitely not in a hurry. The boat has functional H1000 system with autopilot, heading, wind direction and speed, depth and speed through water… also a Garmin GPS map 498, standard compass, hand held compass and handheld wind speed. I also have an iPad with chartplotter ap. We need Radar and AIS before 2026 season. We will be sailing as much as possible prior to then and am trying to do my due diligence. This thread has helped me a lot.

My supplement to #33
.
I recommend keeping your hand held windmeter as a backup (I've got one as well that mounts on the backstay) and installing a fixed wind speed/direction system on top of your mast; pick a company that you will get family instruments from when/if the time comes.

The AIS is a must but make it a transceiver not just a receiver, make yourself seen as well as seeing others. I have a Vesper Watchmate 850 that has been great without a problem since I installed it in 2014. I bought a Vesper SP160 splitter at the same time...I recommend it to eliminate any problem with VHF. Maybe you can find a used pair on eBay.

RADAR is nice to have but I use it less every year, usually just for fog. It is an old Raytheon R20XX unit but hanging in there for as little as I use it. It works OK so I won't replace it until it quits. So, its your choice if you must have RADAR.

A boat the size of yours needs a dedicated chartplotter at the nav station where it is protected from the elements and large enough screen to see detail navigational features; get something else at the wheel for the helmsman. I'm not a believer in iPad as primary nav system as it is not marine grade quality for offshore/passage-making use.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH