Radar and chartplotter systems

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by requiem

Helm. For me one of the best use cases for a plotter is to display radar, and their other strengths are weather-proofing and brightness/dimming.

Down below I prefer more capable instruments (ie iPad or laptop), but a nice luxury might be a smaller display simply to use as a radar repeater.

Strange; I've been able to get all that data to my phone and tablet using the built-in plotter wifi. I don't use the screen mirroring apps, so I too have a "good app" consuming the NMEA feed. The wifi settings on the plotter can be a bit unclear though.

Okay, then I guess I will give it another try. What settings do you use, udp or tcp and which port number?

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Then try an app like iSailor and you’ll discover a new level of brilliance

I don't see "mirroring B&G Vulcan displays" on the feature list.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, then I guess I will give it another try. What settings do you use, udp or tcp and which port number?

Explanation in this comment: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3576487

B&G's support replied promptly but were not terribly clear, however I understand that any data on the network is available by wifi this way. NMEA 0183 it repeats directly, and NMEA 2000 will be converted to 0183 if it's in the supported sentences listed in the manual.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by DTRguy

also the Vulcan was mentioned but what about the Zeus3?

I thought you didn't want to spend silly money!?

I believe the main difference between the Vulcan and the Zeus are that two Zeuses can be connected by ethernet to share cartography (and radar?). Also the physical buttons, obviously.

I don't know if waypoints and tracks can be sent between Vulcans over NMEA, but I would assume they can be shared on Zeuses.

But you're looking at £800 for a Vulcan 7, and probably £4000 for a pair of Zeus.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, then I guess I will give it another try. What settings do you use, udp or tcp and which port number?

My phone and notes say TCP 10110.

There is both the internal wifi and the wifi-1 module, and I believe I ended up using the internal module. There was also some oddness getting it configured initially. As best Google and my memory can tell, the IP address to use was found via "Settings Page –> network –> nmea0183 –> Ethernet". I believe the wifi portion was blank, which may have sent me on a wild goose chase at the time; if you face similar, try plugging in the ethernet IP.

[s/v Jedi]

Ah, I see, this requires one to use the plotter as a wifi access point. This is unacceptable for us because our tablets/phones are connected to our boat’s network and any services need to make themselves available on that network.

The Vesper 8000 unit can attach to the boat’s network as a wifi client, but it lacks basic conversions from NMEA2000 to NMEA0183 over IP.

Also, wifi is nice for your tablet/phone/watch so you can roam around the boat wirelessly, but for services on the network a wired Ethernet connection is much more reliable, plus it decreases load on the wifi substantially. There are multiple products allowing this, but the Yacht Devices converter works pretty good.

Mirroring the plotter screen and relaying key presses is a PITA compared to having a full chart plotter app on your iPad/phone/watch. It is a toy solution, unfit for real use. I believe manufacturers do this on purpose in order to sell more plotters.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

You might find the Garmin's NMEA 2000 Network Fundamentals document PDF helpful in your planning.

Agree. And I have a Garmin chartplotter, CHIRP depth, and radar unit with an NMEA backbone aboard my boat. I spend my time in the NW and Southern BC where fog and rocky bottoms are facts of life. My Garmin system has served me well and is a cost effective solution to upgrading old electronics installations.

[jmschmidt]

As a previous poster stated the NEMA 2000 protocol and Back-Bone suggestions are a tech industry scam which, in the future, will force you into buying only their equipment or equipment sanctioned by them of certain manufactures with whom they have financial agreements.

I want all my electronic and electrical equipment separately wired, controlled and fused via mechanical circuit breaker switches so any monkey can work on it, even myself. I know, I know, going to a cool digital display or your smart phone to turn on a nav light or binge pump is so very woke.

Woke doesn't work very well at sea.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by requiem

My phone and notes say TCP 10110.

FYI sorry for the long explanation I tried to say as little as possible. I really want for one to be able to ask for help in a way that truly communicates the details od one's network.

This isn't the proper way to describe an IP address. The funny thing about an ip network is that it needs to be described with 2 values the IP address and the net mask.

The netmask at the very least describes the size of a network and the most common value is 255.255.255.0. Those dots are important and actual correspond to the missing dots above. The ip address described above needs dots to be helpful.

I would guess that it is 10.1.1.0 which is invalid.

Originally Posted by requiem

There is both the internal wifi and the wifi-1 module, and I believe I ended up using the internal module. There was also some oddness getting it configured initially. As best Google and my memory can tell, the IP address to use was found via "Settings Page –> network –> nmea0183 –> Ethernet". I believe the wifi portion was blank, which may have sent me on a wild goose chase at the time; if you face similar, try plugging in the ethernet IP.

I will go back through the thread to see If I can understand what you are going for.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

As a previous poster stated the NEMA 2000 protocol and Back-Bone suggestions are a tech industry scam which, in the future, will force you into buying only their equipment or equipment sanctioned by them of certain manufactures with whom they have financial agreements.

Would you care to share with us how many manufacturers of electronics for small to medium sized vessels produce products which are capable of NMEA output and how many do not?

[requiem]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

This isn't the proper way to describe an IP address. The funny thing about an ip network is that it needs to be described with 2 values the IP address and the net mask.

That's because it's a port number, not an IP address.

B&G hardware likely auto-assigns IPs, so just because the IP on one boat is xxx.xxx.77.95 doesn't mean that another boat would use the same. Particularly when you could have multiple displays, each with their own network interface(s).

When I was trying to sort out the wifi, I had both an external wifi module (WIFI-1) and an internal one built into the plotter. Either one could be configured as either a hotspot (i.e. it connects to external internet such as marina wifi) or as an access point (i.e. your mobile devices can connect to the boat). Depending on software version, some combinations might not be possible.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by requiem

That's because it's a port number, not an IP address.


Thanks for that

B&G hardware likely auto-assigns IPs, so just because the IP on one boat is xxx.xxx.77.95 doesn't mean that another boat would use the same. Particularly when you could have multiple displays, each with their own network interface(s).

When I was trying to sort out the wifi, I had both an external wifi module (WIFI-1) and an internal one built into the plotter. Either one could be configured as either a hotspot (i.e. it connects to external internet such as marina wifi) or as an access point (i.e. your mobile devices can connect to the boat). Depending on software version, some combinations might not be possible.

If you are able to give all the devices the same network name it should act as a unified network. I always try to hardwired whatever I can then install firewall/gateway that connects to a wifi network. That way the wired network privacy is not compromised by the wifi.

Not sure if you were asking for network topologies.

[CarinaPDX]

Definitely pay attention to Jedi's advice.

I would add that the NMEA 2000 (N2K) backbone should use DeviceNet connectors (the recommended terminals for N2K). Some of the big players tried to force their own proprietary connectors and backbone onto their customers but much of that has gone away now - don't get caught in it. With DeviceNet instruments from multiple vendors just plug and play. (If you really want something that has a SimNet or similar connector then just buy the adapter cable from the instrument to the backbone's DeviceNet.) There are some critics that fuss that there are some incompatibilities but in truth for a basic sailing yacht system I doubt you would ever have a problem - it is really more FUD than anything else. Still it is worth checking that the PGNs used for transmitting data are recognized by the receivers - something that is usually published in the brochures and certainly in the manuals. And while N2K is technically proprietary it has been reverse engineered and is commonly understood. The hardware is based on the CANBUS specification (used in many transport and industrial applications).

In situations like on the bridge it is better to use a Maretron Multiport box than a series of tees. So far I use three such boxes aboard and not one tee. One box is for the bridge instruments, one down below for the autopilot, electronic compass, and USB adapter for computer access, and one near the mast for smart depth, smart speed, and in future masthead weather. Also, download Maretron's catalog. Not only do they have the best cabling in the business, plus N2K instruments/transducers, they have a very readable explanation of how to put together a backbone inside their catalog (or at least did - I haven't checked recently).

Of course everyone has their favorite brands. I have found that Furuno is the most capable of the lot, and has the best support as well, but is usually priced at a premium. Raymarine would come second on my list for capabilities. B&G are hit-or-miss: they have some great (and sometimes unique) features but also have some omissions as well, and their customer service is a bit short-staffed in the U.S. (last I heard still just one specialist, backed up by other Navico CS staff). Garmin would be next, with a very slick user interface. If you want basic capabilities and are technically self-sufficient then any of them would work well. What I warn about is chart availability. Garmin is rather well known for cutting off old chartplotters from new charts, and Garmin charts are the only choice - a deal breaker for me. OTOH My 11 year old Furuno still gets NOAA chart updates every year (free) and I can still buy current Cmap and Navionics charts for it (formatted by MapMedia for Furuno, and MM offer some of their own charts as well). Before deciding I recommend downloading the manuals for any chartplotter of interest and specifically look for the features you want. Hint: the Furuno and to a lesser extent Raymarine have substantial manuals, and sometimes separate installation manuals, that are sufficient for a technically competent person to solve most problems. I found the B&G manuals to be short and lacking in some details (and have fewer possible settings, which may not be of much interest TBH). So download them and you will see what I am talking about.

Save yourself some money and buy Airmar transducers. Most speed and depth transducers offered by the instrument companies are rebranded Airmar. With N2K smart transducers there is no compatibility issue. (Weather instruments are another topic that has been well discussed elsewhere.)

Greg

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

I thought you didn't want to spend silly money!?

I believe the main difference between the Vulcan and the Zeus are that two Zeuses can be connected by ethernet to share cartography (and radar?). Also the physical buttons, obviously.

I don't know if waypoints and tracks can be sent between Vulcans over NMEA, but I would assume they can be shared on Zeuses.

But you're looking at £800 for a Vulcan 7, and probably £4000 for a pair of Zeus.

I don’t… but as mentioned before you can find deals… like reman units… I’m looking into all possible solutions.

[DTRguy]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Definitely pay attention to Jedi's advice.

I would add that the NMEA 2000 (N2K) backbone should use DeviceNet connectors (the recommended terminals for N2K). Some of the big players tried to force their own proprietary connectors and backbone onto their customers but much of that has gone away now - don't get caught in it. With DeviceNet instruments from multiple vendors just plug and play. (If you really want something that has a SimNet or similar connector then just buy the adapter cable from the instrument to the backbone's DeviceNet.) There are some critics that fuss that there are some incompatibilities but in truth for a basic sailing yacht system I doubt you would ever have a problem - it is really more FUD than anything else. Still it is worth checking that the PGNs used for transmitting data are recognized by the receivers - something that is usually published in the brochures and certainly in the manuals. And while N2K is technically proprietary it has been reverse engineered and is commonly understood. The hardware is based on the CANBUS specification (used in many transport and industrial applications).

In situations like on the bridge it is better to use a Maretron Multiport box than a series of tees. So far I use three such boxes aboard and not one tee. One box is for the bridge instruments, one down below for the autopilot, electronic compass, and USB adapter for computer access, and one near the mast for smart depth, smart speed, and in future masthead weather. Also, download Maretron's catalog. Not only do they have the best cabling in the business, plus N2K instruments/transducers, they have a very readable explanation of how to put together a backbone inside their catalog (or at least did - I haven't checked recently).

Of course everyone has their favorite brands. I have found that Furuno is the most capable of the lot, and has the best support as well, but is usually priced at a premium. Raymarine would come second on my list for capabilities. B&G are hit-or-miss: they have some great (and sometimes unique) features but also have some omissions as well, and their customer service is a bit short-staffed in the U.S. (last I heard still just one specialist, backed up by other Navico CS staff). Garmin would be next, with a very slick user interface. If you want basic capabilities and are technically self-sufficient then any of them would work well. What I warn about is chart availability. Garmin is rather well known for cutting off old chartplotters from new charts, and Garmin charts are the only choice - a deal breaker for me. OTOH My 11 year old Furuno still gets NOAA chart updates every year (free) and I can still buy current Cmap and Navionics charts for it (formatted by MapMedia for Furuno, and MM offer some of their own charts as well). Before deciding I recommend downloading the manuals for any chartplotter of interest and specifically look for the features you want. Hint: the Furuno and to a lesser extent Raymarine have substantial manuals, and sometimes separate installation manuals, that are sufficient for a technically competent person to solve most problems. I found the B&G manuals to be short and lacking in some details (and have fewer possible settings, which may not be of much interest TBH). So download them and you will see what I am talking about.

Save yourself some money and buy Airmar transducers. Most speed and depth transducers offered by the instrument companies are rebranded Airmar. With N2K smart transducers there is no compatibility issue. (Weather instruments are another topic that has been well discussed elsewhere.)

Greg

Thanks Greg for that detailed response. I actually have an Airmar in the boat… but I don’t know if it’s new enough to be compatible with the newer generation of plotters etc. It’s paired up with my H1000 MFD (not chartplotter). My intent is to have comprehensive equipment and if it’s integrated then all the better (I imagine). My current thoughts are somewhere between B&G and Raymarine. If I can use components are existing I’d prefer. Like I have a linear drive hydraulic ram autopilot (H1000). I’d hope I can keep the mechanical portion as it’s not particularly old. But my new system will need to be an autopilot, Radar, AIS, and chartplotter. I will also want the typical environmental information for wind, speed and depth (as I have now).