View Poll Results: Blue Water- is a Sextant Necessary?
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Absolutely essential
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24 |
18.75% |
Desirable, but not essential
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52 |
40.63% |
Good fun, but little practical use these days
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40 |
31.25% |
Don't waste your money and time on this
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11 |
8.59% |
Sextants make excellent dingy anchors.
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3 |
2.34% |
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21-11-2012, 01:57
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#196
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
I didn't read this thread and I don't have a sextant or almanac. But i would like to get one and learn to use it. With the gps we can actually test it's accuracy and find mistakes in our corrections. Then if gps goes down, we know where we stand.
I did know a guy who sailed from San Diego to Hawaii by himself with no gps, no sextant and no autopilot. But he had a protractor with a string and a fishing line weight tied to it. His only chart was a map of the Pacific from a National Geographic magazine. He found Hawaii with a transistor radio!
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Reminds me of the Nevil Shute fictional novel "Trustee From the Tool Room". The sailor in that navigated between the US and Hawaii by reaching the air route between SF and Hawaii in his homebuilt timber yacht, then following the planes. His only navigational aid was an Atlas with one page devoted to the Pacific. Was an entertaining read!
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SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
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21-11-2012, 02:28
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#197
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Juneau, AK
Boat: Fortune 30
Posts: 105
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Yep, an old sailor up here told me the way to sail from Alaska to Hawaii. "Sail south until your butter starts to melt, then follow the contrails."
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21-11-2012, 10:23
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#198
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 1,827
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
I think that GPS has opened the world for people that want to cruise. If GPS went down it would "separate the wheat from the chaff" very quickly. Having a sextant onboard has become a novelty. Accuracy is incomparable. Sailors went for days or even weeks without being able to take a good site. With gps you can follow your old tracks back into a tricky place. I forgot to mention that my friend who sailed to Hawaii with no gps or sextant was in a 23' swing keeled Aquarius trailer sailer. He also had no VHF, no EPIRB, no satphone, no liferaft. This isn't the right thread for it but I like to talk about this guy. He was, incidentally, lost at sea attempting to sail the little boat back to the mainland. This time he had a GPS and an E-PIRB and a few nautical charts. He was never heard from again.
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21-11-2012, 12:23
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#199
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nova Scotia until Spring 2021
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,976
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
At the same time, the record of incidents indicates that GPS has given very raw sailors (and quite a few drivers) perhaps a measure of over-confidence that is no replacement for seamanship, keeping a watch, and exhibiting common sense.
GPS is a good tool, but no tool is a replacement for the mind that uses it properly.
With a sextant, the tendency toward inaccuracy or error is known; the object of CN practice is to recognize that tendency and to reduce error to positions that are useful and useable, which need not mean 20 metres of accuracy in the middle of the ocean, but does mean developing a reliable and repeatable technique with the sextant and calculations that gives that meaningful position.
That alone implies a greater engagement with the problems of navigation and route planning than simply sailing to a waypoint and watching the lat/lon numerals blink.
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22-11-2012, 00:01
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#200
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,346
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
On another thread, there is a discussion re: Do you know Nathaniel Bowditch? Some do not. If you have never heard of Bowditch, I would question how much you know about navigation. You might be perfectly capable of reading a GPS or a chartplotter But if you're fro the states - if know anything about navigation, you've heard of Bowditch
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Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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22-11-2012, 01:18
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#201
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
......
I forgot to mention that my friend who sailed to Hawaii with no gps or sextant was in a 23' swing keeled Aquarius trailer sailer. He also had no VHF, no EPIRB, no satphone, no liferaft. This isn't the right thread for it but I like to talk about this guy. He was, incidentally, lost at sea attempting to sail the little boat back to the mainland. This time he had a GPS and an E-PIRB and a few nautical charts. He was never heard from again.
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I doubt if a sextant would have helped him at all .
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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22-11-2012, 01:47
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#202
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
I like the idea of being independent and self-sufficient in passage making.
So Celestial and classic Navigation are skills I used a lot before GPS and have always carried that option when crossing oceans.
Since I prefer to live far from the mainstream, my only thought is that if a real shooting war started between the primary world powers, all GPS would be down.
That would also be the time I would want to disappear.
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22-11-2012, 04:40
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#203
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S/V rubber ducky
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: heading "south"
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 20,362
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
I forgot to mention that my friend who sailed to Hawaii with no gps or sextant was in a 23' swing keeled Aquarius trailer sailer. He also had no VHF, no EPIRB, no satphone, no liferaft. This isn't the right thread for it but I like to talk about this guy. He was, incidentally, lost at sea attempting to sail the little boat back to the mainland. This time he had a GPS and an E-PIRB and a few nautical charts. He was never heard from again.
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so just suicide by boat!
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22-11-2012, 04:54
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#204
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
On another thread, there is a discussion re: Do you know Nathaniel Bowditch? Some do not. If you have never heard of Bowditch, I would question how much you know about navigation. You might be perfectly capable of reading a GPS or a chartplotter But if you're fro the states - if know anything about navigation, you've heard of Bowditch
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I beleive you are referring to the American or more correctly the New American Practical Navigator. Mr Bowditch input having been superceeded a long time ago. I have versions from 1900 up. A lot of celestial stuff is of course now removed.
Dave
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Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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22-11-2012, 04:57
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#205
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy
At the same time, the record of incidents indicates that GPS has given very raw sailors (and quite a few drivers) perhaps a measure of over-confidence that is no replacement for seamanship, keeping a watch, and exhibiting common sense.
GPS is a good tool, but no tool is a replacement for the mind that uses it properly.
With a sextant, the tendency toward inaccuracy or error is known; the object of CN practice is to recognize that tendency and to reduce error to positions that are useful and useable, which need not mean 20 metres of accuracy in the middle of the ocean, but does mean developing a reliable and repeatable technique with the sextant and calculations that gives that meaningful position.
That alone implies a greater engagement with the problems of navigation and route planning than simply sailing to a waypoint and watching the lat/lon numerals blink.
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This is not the case. For example in any nav class the accuracy issues with GPS are always fully covered. Equally using any position finding techniques , of the chart is off all are off.
A sextant is just a position fixing tool., just like a handheld compass. A RDF , a GPS. Prudent mariners understand eachs limitations. Imprudent mariners will mis-use any device.
Dave
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Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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22-11-2012, 05:32
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#206
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,346
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
DAve,
I've never taken a nav class in the US. But Bowditch practically wrote the first Practical American Navigator. If you're going to teach navigation some background/history is important. I realize that celestial nav. is not taught anymore unless you are going for at Yachtmaster or something similar, but even coastal nab using paper charts etc. probably needs to at least mention Bowditch.
And on a cruisers forum (cruisers - oceans - get it?) I would certainly expect everyone to have at least heard of Bowditch.
Oh well, I'm just an old fart. I still use my sextant, and I used to be able to use a slide rule.
The good news is that the above allows me to sit on the pier, pipe in mouth, critiquing all the skippers coming in with words like "in my day, we would have...." and all that good old salt stuff
__________________
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=carsten...ref=nb_sb_noss
Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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22-11-2012, 07:24
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#207
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,441
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
If you have never heard of Bowditch, I would question how much you know about navigation.
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That's akin to saying that if you have never heard of Galileo and Newton it's questionable whether you know enough about physics to walk. I'm stretching the analogy a lot but you get the idea.
Also there's whole bunch of sailors in Asia and Africa that must be causing you a lot of questions.
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22-11-2012, 07:39
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#208
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: On the boat.
Boat: Morgan 512 51 feet 6inches
Posts: 102
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
I bought a Plath sextant from a German sea captain in 1971 and used it for years. Then along came GPS and the celestial navigation thing took a back seat. About 1993 I took a Captains course and learnt to do celestial with a $15 Cassio calculator. I still have the sextant and I buy the Almanac every year.....but it would take me some time to get back into it.
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22-11-2012, 08:03
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#209
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,346
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Re: Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary?
Adelie,
I would agree with your analogy except, a closer analogy would be to say, unless you have heard of newton, you can't understand physics.
Re: all the poor sailors in asia, africa, europe and oceania, I did say if you learned navigation in an american nav school.
Having said all that, I've heard of Bowditch, but then I'll read almost anything on sailing or navigation.
__________________
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=carsten...ref=nb_sb_noss
Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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22-11-2012, 09:42
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#210
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
DAve,
I've never taken a nav class in the US. But Bowditch practically wrote the first Practical American Navigator. If you're going to teach navigation some background/history is important. I realize that celestial nav. is not taught anymore unless you are going for at Yachtmaster or something similar, but even coastal nab using paper charts etc. probably needs to at least mention Bowditch.
And on a cruisers forum (cruisers - oceans - get it?) I would certainly expect everyone to have at least heard of Bowditch.
Oh well, I'm just an old fart. I still use my sextant, and I used to be able to use a slide rule.
The good news is that the above allows me to sit on the pier, pipe in mouth, critiquing all the skippers coming in with words like "in my day, we would have...." and all that good old salt stuff
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Bowditch is a great time. I have several. The older ones are surprisingly small compared to the modern one. Bowditch now of course contains a lot of non relevant stuff for leisure sailors. But it's an excellent navigation primer and cheap to get of course. There are many other tomes of course. ( especially as the American practical navigator is unheard of this side of the pond ). There are considerably better primers for celestial nav as well too. At the last count I had 15 books on the subject.
Ps carstenb have a go at Lunars. Then you can talk down to the young'uns LOL
Dave
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