Another Navionics Victim in Georgetown

[StuM]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Interestingly people have been mentioning the 'Navionics route' surely no-one was relying on auto routing through what looks to be a tricky area?

It's not auto-routing, it's the dotted line through the centre between the two cays in the attachment to post #9. The annotation to that line called it "recommended track", that track has been removed, but there is still one just south of the cays..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

FIFY


It would appear that Navionics removed the "suggested route", added numerous obstruction symbols and a warning note more than six years ago.

Just a wee sermon, then I promise I'll give up the soap box.


I'm just in the process of spending about £500 updating a bunch of charts and acquiring current pilot books, although it's for a trip I've made four times before already and where I know the route well. Most of the expense is updating three Navionics chips (one of them has to be exchanged), one of which was only updated last month on the last day of Freshest Data, a none of which are out of date by more than a year.



But out of date, is out of date! You just have no right to use a chart and assume that there is nothing of importance to you on the current version.



For most of the route I will at least two entirely separate sets of up-to-date cartography, which I like to check against each other as I go.


Charts are not the place to save money! If you have an accident and you are found to not have up-to-date charts on board, I emphasize, up-to-date, you can get in trouble, and it's fundamental to safe navigation and good seamanship to have all the information available, about where you are sailing. To dive between those two cays with nothing but a 6+ year old Navionics chip, which isn't even released "for navigation", is madness.


I bet the pilot books have a note about that pass, as well.


None of us was there, but I think it's pretty hard to imagine an explanation for that event which does not involve egregious poor seamanship and egregiously poor navigation procedure.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Shouldn't it read ..Rather a victim of relying too heavily on their charts, and not keeping their eyeballs peeled well enough.

I don't think it matters much if they are electronic or not.

Whether one says electronic charts or paper charts or any kind of charts or outdated charts is all moot.

To make a safe reef passage in the Bahamas
- depend first and foremost on visual navigation
- use a good pair of polarized glasses
- insure good visibility IE not with the sun low and ahead that, even with good polarized glasses, will hide dangers

To do otherwise is, as a friend used to put it, the height of folly.

This of course would apply to cruising in any, poorly charted area with waters clear enough to see the hazards.

[Seman]

We usually run OCPN on a long passage. When getting close to shallow water we run Navionics on an Ipad as well as OCPN CM 93 charts.
Navionics charts are great, more detail.
However if there is a dangerous discrepancy between the 2 charts we change course.
Safety first!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Whether one says electronic charts or paper charts or any kind of charts or outdated charts is all moot.

To make a safe reef passage in the Bahamas
- depend first and foremost on visual navigation
- use a good pair of polarized glasses
- insure good visibility IE not with the sun low and ahead that, even with good polarized glasses, will hide dangers

To do otherwise is, as a friend used to put it, the height of folly.

This of course would apply to cruising in any, poorly charted area with waters clear enough to see the hazards.

Good advice


I've put a man up the mast in a bosun's chair before, when trying to pick my way through coral reefs. That was in the Eastern Caribbean before the days of chart plotters, but not a useless practice today by any means.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seman

We usually run OCPN on a long passage. When getting close to shallow water we run Navionics on an Ipad as well as OCPN CM 93 charts.
Navionics charts are great, more detail.
However if there is a dangerous discrepancy between the 2 charts we change course.
Safety first!

Do you have charts for OpenCPN other than CM93? You realize that these pirated charts are at least 7 years out of date by now, and none of the sets is quite complete?


I use them myself for different purposes, including as a kind of base map, but using CM93 for navigation is irresponsible.

[lifeofreilly57]

I hate to think what I've paid for charts, then again I like my boat floating just the way it is.
We have Explorer paper charts for the Bahamas, c-map n+ electronic charts, which use explorer info, and also navionics on our smart phones. But still take the most conservative routes into and out of cuts.
We have a six foot draft so it makes us a bit more cautious than many of the cats down here who draft much less.
I have to wonder if some captains on shallower draft vessels are more willing to shoot more questionable cuts?
We go over all the information we can gather and still like to get into a cut when the sun is good and visuals are apparent, even then it can be tricky.
Our hearts go out to the owners of that catamaran, and we would like to give kudos to the cruising community members who sprang into action to help that Skipper keep his home afloat, if not for them their floating home would have been lost.
Remember, we're all in this together and none of us is infallible, it just takes one momentary lapse of judgement.
When people ask me when I became "comfortable" cruising I usually answer never. I'm always a bit uncomfortable when entering an unknown bit of water, it keeps me honest and humble.

[lifeofreilly57]

If nothing else, this episode seems to have started a discussion locally about navigation practices and differences in the different chart sources. Hopefully some good comes out if this.
Just glad the catamaran was saved and they have the possibility if repairing it.
Which opens up another conversation, to insure it not to insure?
We've been talking to many cruisers since arriving in Georgetown, and have heard opinions both ways. Some do, some don't. We choose to carry it, but know how much it's gone up since the last couple hurricanes.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Good advice


I've put a man up the mast in a bosun's chair before, when trying to pick my way through coral reefs. That was in the Eastern Caribbean before the days of chart plotters, but not a useless practice today by any means.

This is the main reason I want to add ratlines to my lower shrouds. Then I can pop a lookout up to the spreaders any time I feel the need.

[lifeofreilly57]

Originally Posted by skipmac

This is the main reason I want to add ratlines to my lower shrouds. Then I can pop a lookout up to the spreaders any time I feel the need.

Hmm, maybe a little seminar on the beach on how to add ratlines to your rigging? I'm sure many would be interested. I haven't seen many boats with them in the last 2000 miles.
Maybe the Advent of electronic charts has lulled many into a false sense of security. I have realized in conversing with a number of owners here in the Bahamas that many have bought their first boat ever in FL and then set right out for the Bahamas. It's way too easy.
There is a mix of newbies and old salts here which would be a golden opportunity to possibly share pertinent info and strategies.
Anyone here have the joy of using an RDF?

[SaltyMetals]

I was at a navigation meeting in London a few months ago at Trinity House, held by the Royal Institute of Navigation. An interesting meeting on electronic aids with about 100 delegates targeted for smaller boats rather than ships . We heard in the morning the result of a market survey done at the Southampton Boat Show which came up with the conclusion that only about 5% of owners updated their electronic charts. There was a panel discussion in the afternoon and one of the panel was the UK boss of Navionics. So when it came to questions i stood up and asked the boss of Navionics when he was going to follow a more sensible policy of giving an 80% discount for updated chips instead of CHARGING 80% of the new price for an update. With a discount of 80% we would then see a completely different result in such a survey and it would encourage everyone to be navigating in a safer manner. As it is now, i said I doubted Navionics was receiving much income from updates because they have gone way over the top of the Laffer Curve. As i sat down the whole room exploded in applause!
PS: I think the figure is 80% of the new price but one of you guys can correct me if it is different.

[Seriously Slow]

Just a note, 7;00 pm is very close to sunset here in Georgetown. I do not think it would have been much better if crew was up the mast as he was traveling towards the west.
I heard on the net that he damaged the saildrive and drove it up into the hull. It was really close but there were some skilled people here and on it fast.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMetals

I was at a navigation meeting in London a few months ago at Trinity House, held by the Royal Institute of Navigation. An interesting meeting on electronic aids with about 100 delegates targeted for smaller boats rather than ships . We heard in the morning the result of a market survey done at the Southampton Boat Show which came up with the conclusion that only about 5% of owners updated their electronic charts. There was a panel discussion in the afternoon and one of the panel was the UK boss of Navionics. So when it came to questions i stood up and asked the boss of Navionics when he was going to follow a more sensible policy of giving an 80% discount for updated chips instead of CHARGING 80% of the new price for an update. With a discount of 80% we would then see a completely different result in such a survey and it would encourage everyone to be navigating in a safer manner. As it is now, i said I doubted Navionics was receiving much income from updates because they have gone way over the top of the Laffer Curve. As i sat down the whole room exploded in applause!
PS: I think the figure is 80% of the new price but one of you guys can correct me if it is different.

It's 50%, but your point is equally valid.


I agree with your analysis. Sloppy seamanship is the main reason people don't update their charts, but charging so much for updates is a big factor, I'm sure.



Another issue is how cruising areas are priced. Going back to the days when the old CF cards were very small, charts used to be sold for very small areas. These areas were gradually increased, but they are still way too small for long distance cruisers, and it seems to me they are kept artificially small just to exploit this. To cover the whole Baltic Sea, you need three (3!) Navionics cards costing more than £1000. That's just ridiculous. And if you try to get your charts from NV Charts, it's even worse.



Why should you pay 10x as much for cartography, just because you cover a larger area, in the same amount of time? Your usage of the product is not more intense, from one user intensively using a smaller area. You should be able to pay a reasonable price for a whole continent, at least -- perhaps on a subscription basis.


Cheap updates would be great, and I might even be willing to pay more for the original card, especially if it covers a really large area.


I also wouldn't necessarily be against a subscription system where you buy - for a reasonable price -- just one year of access to a given area, and you have to buy it again next year if you're going to be there again. I bought charts for OpenCPN of Faroes and Iceland like that, and I was pleased to have right up to date charts of those areas, for a reasonable price (less than £100 for both IIRC), and didn't mind that they disappeared in a year.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

Hmm, maybe a little seminar on the beach on how to add ratlines to your rigging? I'm sure many would be interested. I haven't seen many boats with them in the last 2000 miles.

Same here. I see a few walking the docks but very few. As to a seminar on the beach, I would sign up. I've been looking at options on how to do this and haven't yet settled on a final plan. A lot of them involve attaching rope to the rigging wire which I'm concerned could hold moisture and promote crevice corrosion. Current thinking is to use SS or monel wire wrapped around the stay to hold some kind of bracket that supports a wood rung.

Maybe time to start a thread on this.

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

Anyone here have the joy of using an RDF?

Not for a long, long time.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

I don't think it matters much if they are electronic [charts] or not.

You are absolutely right.

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

Which opens up another conversation, to insure it not to insure?

That is an entirely personal decision that has to do with how much you are willing to risk, and how much you can afford to lose. Everyone has to make their own decision as to which side they come down on.