Windlass Setup with Shallow Locker

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by MJH

That's a beautiful looking teak deck...but not very practical. I also don't see any anchor roller setup already in place which may very well add to your windlass placement. It makes me wonder what the designer had in mind for anchoring...perhaps some correspondence with the manufacturer or other owners of the same model is in order for starters...no need to reinvent the wheel. But take it from me, rode coming in over the bow is going to bring a lot of crud with over the years even if you use an anchor washdown pump which you should also start thinking about as well. Overall, like my Tayana, I think the design would have been better without the doors and with a vertical windlass installed; a clean install and practical. That would be a much larger expense now but the outcome would be worth it.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

It is a small roller hidden by the fuller.

[JOHNMARDALL]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

Can we think outside the chain locker for a moment? (Sorry, I couldn't resist it) Whether the windlass has a vertical or horizontal shaft, the chain discharge has to be over the chain locker, so even with a horizontal windlass, you will need to build a deck extension over the locker, or reinforce and secure one of the half hatches as shown by a previous poster. With that done, with only 12" depth in the locker, you're going to need to spread the chain around as you retrieve it, or it will soon be piled up under the windlass and stop any additional chain drop (and therefore feed). All of that seems a bit half-baked to me and I definitely wouldn't enjoy it being on the bow, stirring the chain pile in rough conditions.
So, can we forget about the existing "chain locker", move the windlass much further aft on the foredeck, put a vertical chain pipe (4" PVC can be good) under it, and drop the chain into a box or bucket glassed in to a suitably deep part of the bilge? Then we can put a chain stopper far enough aft of the bow roller for the anchor to come all the way in, and put a stainless steel sheet metal plate on the deck to stop the chain scratching that lovely Swan. Simple, easily installed, fully functional, no chain-weight in the bow and no foredeck acrobatics in storm conditions.


If you'd like to contact me direct (jmardall@comcast.net), and perhaps send some sketches or inboard profiles so that I can see what's inside the boat, I'll suggest a layout and system for you.


All the best
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Boat Equipment


PS Don't forget that the boat should never be "anchored on the windlass". Once the anchor is set, the rode tension should be transferred to a chain stopper or snubber. Failure to do so may damage the windlass gearbox in heavy conditions. So, if you are going to use the existing shallow locker, which I assume is all the way forward, you've still got to devise a way to take the riding loads of the windlass.

1. Do people really spend that much time retrieving anchors in storm conditions?
People don’t spend that much time retrieving anchors in any conditions, but for me, the test of anything on my boat is how it will work when things get rough. Boating, like flying, has been unfairly described as hours of boredom, broken by moments of terror. It doesn’t take many seconds to get badly injured and you can count on doing everything on your boat in bad conditions sooner or later.

2. Following your advice, if I installed the windlass aft of the locker, I would have to cover the deck and the anchor locker cover with steel. And I would not be able to open the cover because the chain would be in the way.
Correct, you would abandon the existing anchor locker, unless you found a way to use it to store something you didn’t want to get to very often. If that was the case, you’d simply cut the sheet metal to make the hatch cover a separate part. This is only sheet stainless, cut with a water jet and only about 0.5 mm thick. You don’t have to do it at all, the chain will be tight most of the time, but I like a stainless deck protector with any windlass set up.

3. I prefer not to have the chain/rope in the bilge because it would add more humidity and smell inside the boat.
I haven’t experienced that, but there’s quite a bit of humidity and smell in most boats, so maybe I’m just used to it. The vast majority of real chain lockers are inside the boat. Even when they’re in the bow, they’re only behind a bulkhead with a hatch or access panel in it. It is a good idea to rig a washdown jet or hose at or near the bow roller, to blow any bottom gunge off the chain and anchor before they come on deck.


Below is a picture of the locker area.
Sorry, the picture did not come through. Can you try again.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

...
2. Following your advice, if I installed the windlass aft of the locker, I would have to cover the deck and the anchor locker cover with steel. And I would not be able to open the cover because the chain would be in the way.

[COLOR=#0070C0]Correct...

Actually not correct.

The only time you would not be able to open the hatch is when the chain must be under tension, such as while deploying or retrieving the anchor. All the rest of the time the chain can be set aside for access to the locker.

Also, traditionally, besides stainless, a sacrificial piece of wood (teak) is used to protect the deck from chain wear. After years of heavy use it might need to be replaced.

[RaymondR]

I agree with John Mardall, the traditional placement of anchor winches right at the bow on the centre line in sail boats tends to bring a lot of problems which could be avoided by placing it further aft and perhaps off the centre line.

[Terra Nova]

On Terra Nova the vertical capstan windlass is located off center, near the mast. This allows it to be used for functions other than hauling the bow anchor and takes its substantial weight out of the bow, as well as gets it closer to the house battery bank. But mainly it facilitates placing the immense weight of 270' of 3/8" high test chain right over the keel, next to the mast, bolstering the 10,000 lbs of internal ballast.

The attached photo shows the tall, slender chain bin (which prevents the chain pile from toppling and tangling) on the left and, on the deck's underside, near the main bulkhead, can be seen the mounting surface for the heavy duty stainless chain pipe, which is not installed in the photo. The chain bin is located in the head and drains to a separate sump with its own automatic discharge pump. The top of the chain bin will be covered with a small cushion which can be used as a seat while working at the sink.

[JOHNMARDALL]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

On Terra Nova the vertical capstan windlass is located off center, near the mast. This allows it to be used for functions other than hauling the bow anchor and takes its substantial weight out of the bow, as well as gets it closer to the house battery bank. But mainly it facilitates placing the immense weight of 270' of 3/8" high test chain right over the keel, next to the mast, bolstering the 10,000 lbs of internal ballast.

The attached photo shows the tall, slender chain bin (which prevents the chain pile from toppling and tangling) on the left and, on the deck's underside, near the main bulkhead, can be seen the mounting surface for the heavy duty stainless chain pipe, which is not installed in the photo. The chain bin is located in the head and drains to a separate sump with its own automatic discharge pump. The top of the chain bin will be covered with a small cushion which can be used as a seat while working at the sink.

That's what I'm talking about. Very sensible and practical. When you're ready to spend some more money, I recommend replacing that three strand twist with eight strand brait - you'll be amazed at how it flakes itself down like chain, doesn't bird's nest (thereby taking up much less space), doesn't hockle on the way back to the windlass and is much easier on the hands


John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Boat Equipment.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

1. Do people really spend that much time retrieving anchors in storm conditions?
People don’t spend that much time retrieving anchors in any conditions, but for me, the test of anything on my boat is how it will work when things get rough. Boating, like flying, has been unfairly described as hours of boredom, broken by moments of terror. It doesn’t take many seconds to get badly injured and you can count on doing everything on your boat in bad conditions sooner or later.

2. Following your advice, if I installed the windlass aft of the locker, I would have to cover the deck and the anchor locker cover with steel. And I would not be able to open the cover because the chain would be in the way.
Correct, you would abandon the existing anchor locker, unless you found a way to use it to store something you didn’t want to get to very often. If that was the case, you’d simply cut the sheet metal to make the hatch cover a separate part. This is only sheet stainless, cut with a water jet and only about 0.5 mm thick. You don’t have to do it at all, the chain will be tight most of the time, but I like a stainless deck protector with any windlass set up.

3. I prefer not to have the chain/rope in the bilge because it would add more humidity and smell inside the boat.
I haven’t experienced that, but there’s quite a bit of humidity and smell in most boats, so maybe I’m just used to it. The vast majority of real chain lockers are inside the boat. Even when they’re in the bow, they’re only behind a bulkhead with a hatch or access panel in it. It is a good idea to rig a washdown jet or hose at or near the bow roller, to blow any bottom gunge off the chain and anchor before they come on deck.


Below is a picture of the locker area.
Sorry, the picture did not come through. Can you try again.

Other posters are able to see the picture of the deck and locker cover. My anchor locker is probably 5 feet long, 4 feet wide and 1 foot deep. It is totally sealed from the boat interior, it has two drains.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

...My anchor locker is probably 5 feet long, 4 feet wide and 1 foot deep...

That locker is not designed for self-feeding chain through a windlass.

JM--the piece of line you see is only to secure the chain's bitter end.

[SailRedemption]

We just finished our anchor setup on our Kaufman 47, which is very similar to your Swan in layout (closer to a S46). We have butterfly hatches instead of one big one on our fore deck. We mounted the Maxwell VWC2500 vert windlass aft of the shallow locker. We made a chain spill pipe that runs down between the v-berth cushions and under to a dedicated chain locker we made after removing a big water tank. The pipe is about mid shin for me and I'm 5'9" so it's not a big deal. Sheets will need buttons or Velcro to make the split. We made an enclosure for the windlass gearbox so hide it and the other bits. The only thing we need to do is put a strip of thin stainless on the stbd hatch cover if the chain starts wearing on the teak. I figure I can at least hold close to 200' of 3/8 g4 chain. I can get more pictures late but it's raining like crazy today. Hears some I have during the project.

We haven't bought the chain yet, which is why we have that temp rode attached to our 85lb Mantus. Our dock neighbors are going to let us pull in there chain so we can see how much we can hold before we order.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

We just finished our anchor setup on our Kaufman 47, which is very similar to your Swan in layout (closer to a S46). We have butterfly hatches instead of one big one on our fore deck. We mounted the Maxwell VWC2500 vert windlass aft of the shallow locker. We made a chain spill pipe that runs down between the v-berth cushions and under to a dedicated chain locker we made after removing a big water tank. The pipe is about mid shin for me and I'm 5'9" so it's not a big deal. Sheets will need buttons or Velcro to make the split. We made an enclosure for the windlass gearbox so hide it and the other bits. The only thing we need to do is put a strip of thin stainless on the stbd hatch cover if the chain starts wearing on the teak. I figure I can at least hold close to 200' of 3/8 g4 chain. I can get more pictures late but it's raining like crazy today. Hears some I have during the project.

We haven't bought the chain yet, which is why we have that temp rode attached to our 85lb Mantus. Our dock neighbors are going to let us pull in there chain so we can see how much we can hold before we order.

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Nice! I reluctantly say this, but I tried a tube like that, it had no bends but was about that size. It was maybe just a bit bigger. The chain stacked and jammed in it, then how do you clear it? You need a larger diameter tube I'm guessing. Especially with those bends in it. I hope not though.

[MJH]

A photo of the v-berth area would be helpful. I've Googled your boat for photos without success. I am now assuming your v-berth is at the very forward peak of the boat with nothing forward of it.

If you install a horizontal windlass in the anchor well (model with the gypsy on the very top of it) and have the chain drop vertically through the anchor well and through the v-berth area to the hull it should work fine. The tube (PVC 40?) through the v-berth area should be of a large enough diameter (4-5") to prevent any jamming and could be covered (nautical wrapping) to be aesthetically acceptable. My only concern at this point would be with the chain beneath the v-berth and the depth and available area to stack well. What is the area/depth beneath the v-berth? Any equipment in there? What access to that area do you have?

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

That locker is not designed for self-feeding chain through a windlass.

JM--the piece of line you see is only to secure the chain's bitter end.

I understand that. That was the purpose of this thread, to see what others have done with shallow lockers.

[SailRedemption]

It's

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Nice! I reluctantly say this, but I tried a tube like that, it had no bends but was about that size. It was maybe just a bit bigger. The chain stacked and jammed in it, then how do you clear it? You need a larger diameter tube I'm guessing. Especially with those bends in it. I hope not though.

It's schedule 10 tubing so it doesn't have much wall thickness. I tested the tube with a 1' length of 3/8 chain and it went through fast. I hope your wrong. I spent a lot of time working on it. It also has a good drop from underneath the pipe so maybe that will help. If not, we have a nice hatch to access underneath. I'll try to remember to let you know how it works when we get some chain to test it.

[philiosophy]

I believe I have a few good suggestions that have not already been mentioned, or additional information to other suggestions.
1. I too have a shallow chainlockerjust below deck and aboutyour same depth. Southern Cross 39. I opted to beef up the deck a bit and install a horizontal windlass. The foot controlls easily activated by my hand and handily located while I kneel and handle the chain as it piles up. This is in accordance with my desire to be at the bow deciding where and when I want to drop the hook and which direction(hand signals to the person at the helm) I want the boat directed in when retreiving the hook. So much easier to drop the anchor juston the sandy patch between the Bamies or what have you. I early on so wanted an anchor locker that would just be deep andallowthe chain to fall into with out fail. That said I have come to realize I am much more in tune with the condition of my chain this way. There is the rare time when it blows up and one has to get out of the anchorage to fine another but while it is uncomfortable inthe spray... Again you are right thereonthe bow to see when the boat has overshot the anchor or siwashed around a coral head or what ever may be taking place as you pick it up.
2. You could spend the money (after all you have a Swan) to redesign and move your anchorlocker aft far enough to allow it to stack properly, but that will quite possibly cost you a great deal of redesign of the space as it needs to be a pretty good fall distance to work properly. Personally I would spend that money on other more rewarding things.
3.I would concider going with all chain. I have 275’ and do move it all to a locker below for passages . Easily done with two people. Sadly not far enough aft for the solution of a self stacking anchor locker.
4. When doing this project make sure you get a good and oversized windlass. Go oversize. I repeat go oversize. I bought one size upfrom the suggested size and wish I bought two sizes up. This piece of equipment gets used a lot and needs to be powerful and heavy duty enough. This brings me to suggestion number 5.
5.Do not buy a Quick windlass. The quality control is terrible and their much needed three year warrenty is hard to get them to stand behind. There are excellent windlass manufacturers out there. Pay a little extra and you will in the long run be glad you did.
6.Last but surely not least. Figure out your largest circumference possible sized bow roller. The amount of extra leverage afforded by an oversized bow roller is large. If you can get someone to turn on a lath a custom roller with a channel in the center to cause your chain to untwist as it comes in you will love that as much as I do. No need whatsoever for a swivel at the anchor which I dont recomend anyway. Seriously consider this option and you will be glad you did. 5 years in and its one of the coolest things on the boat used often from Seattle to Mexico to Ecuador to the Marquesas,French Polynesia to Tonga to New Zealand to Tonga to Western Samoa to Fiji toNew Zealand to Fiji to Vanautu where we just used it successfully yesterday. Cheers Should you have any questions you may contact me at kimphilley58@gmail.com

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by MJH

A photo of the v-berth area would be helpful. I've Googled your boat for photos without success. I am now assuming your v-berth is at the very forward peak of the boat with nothing forward of it.

If you install a horizontal windlass in the anchor well (model with the gypsy on the very top of it) and have the chain drop vertically through the anchor well and through the v-berth area to the hull it should work fine. The tube (PVC 40?) through the v-berth area should be of a large enough diameter (4-5") to prevent any jamming and could be covered (nautical wrapping) to be aesthetically acceptable. My only concern at this point would be with the chain beneath the v-berth and the depth and available area to stack well. What is the area/depth beneath the v-berth? Any equipment in there? What access to that area do you have?

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

There is a small area forward of the v-berth, I have not pulled down the ceiling panels but I think the entire anchor locker is over this compartment. I have posted a picture of the compartment below.



My boatyard manager also recommends putting the horizontal windlass in the anchor locker and letting the chain drop to the compartment forward of the v-berth. I would only want to do this as a last resort. We would have to have the windlass mounted at an angle on a fabricated bracket. And as an anchor rep already advised me, the chain scraping thru the deck opening will eventually were off the galvanizing.

As I said in my original post, some horizontal brands advise that the required chain drop can be measured from the gypsy. If that is the case I would have about 6-8 inches of rope pile-up before I would have to move it around. If I mounted the windlass on deck, and moving the chain while retrieving turned into a hassle, we could always add the piping to drop the chain thru the locker.