Side loading on Ultra Swivel (or swivels in general)

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

These swivels have been used forever and I have never heard of a failure. They are rated. This swivel is a Chicago Hardware and has a SWL of 7,000 lbs and the shackle is a Crosby (best shackle in the world) at 9,500 lbs. My chain is 3/8” G70 at 6,600 lbs.

What I don’t like is a stainless swivel and/or shackle on a galvanized anchor and/or chain.

I’ve been watching and don’t see any galvanic corrosion issues on mine yet.
When I do I’ll lop off a link or two, something you can’t do with an oversized link.
Some of course make their own oversized links with a tapered punch.
Long ago I postulated why doesn’t our anchor chains act like one huge zinc? It would seem with 100’ of zinc plated chain out and connected to a grounded windlass, that my zincs would never waste as the chain way over zinc’ s the boat.
But it doesn’t, and I don’t know why, but I think maybe there isn’t an issue with SS on zinc plated chain for the same reason.

But swivel wise, as I said I don’t think it matters what you use as a swivel, just it ought to be stronger than the chain, and that’s uncommon, if your design is subjected to side loading, add a short piece of chain between it and the anchor.

But if you get a Mantus swivel in your hand and inspect it, you’ll have to admit it’s well Engineered.


This year I took out all my chain and swapped it end to end to even out the wear, the chain in the locker that I never used was all twisted up, was a PIA to untwist it to get it out, only thing I can figure was somehow it went in that way?
I’m wondering if maybe once a year I ought to stop in deep water and let all of it out and if it’s twisted, let it untwist?

[Jim Cate]

I’m wondering if maybe once a year I ought to stop in deep water and let all of it out and if it’s twisted, let it untwist?

Just be sure that your windlass really has enough grunt to lift the whole lot! Embarrassing if it does not!

Jim

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’ve been watching and don’t see any galvanic corrosion issues on mine yet.
When I do I’ll lop off a link or two, something you can’t do with an oversized link.
Some of course make their own oversized links with a tapered punch.
Long ago I postulated why doesn’t our anchor chains act like one huge zinc? It would seem with 100’ of zinc plated chain out and connected to a grounded windlass, that my zincs would never waste as the chain way over zinc’ s the boat.
But it doesn’t, and I don’t know why, but I think maybe there isn’t an issue with SS on zinc plated chain for the same reason.

But swivel wise, as I said I don’t think it matters what you use as a swivel, just it ought to be stronger than the chain, and that’s uncommon, if your design is subjected to side loading, add a short piece of chain between it and the anchor.

But if you get a Mantus swivel in your hand and inspect it, you’ll have to admit it’s well Engineered.


This year I took out all my chain and swapped it end to end to even out the wear, the chain in the locker that I never used was all twisted up, was a PIA to untwist it to get it out, only thing I can figure was somehow it went in that way?
I’m wondering if maybe once a year I ought to stop in deep water and let all of it out and if it’s twisted, let it untwist?

The windlass should not be grounded. The negative terminal of the motor should be insulated from the housing like the positive terminals.

Yes, I think the Mantus swivel is well engineered. But what is the cost at a 7,000 lb (6,600+ lbs) swl?

[Ultra Marine West]

Hi everyone,

The side loads of the ULTRA Flip Swivels match with their pulling loads, which is something extreme, but we intentionally don't use it in our marketing.

Once you check our swivel's breaking loads, you will understand me better. https://www.ultramarinewest.com/prod...ra-flip-swivel

As some of you already mentioned in that forum, the only way the sideload takes place if the anchor gets stuck under rocks. However, neither anchors nor swivels designed to work under big stones. That is why Lloyds don't test the side loads of the anchor shanks. They see the swivels as chain accessories, so they don't tets their side loads, either.

So there is simply no side load terminology for anchors and swivels. That is why we don't use it in our marketing.

If the sea bottom is rocky, you shouldn't anchor there. If you have to or if you are unsure of the sea bottom type, you shouldn't do it without taking precautions such as you can tie a floating line to the bar of the ULTRA Anchor so that you can pull it from the other direction to recover. We designed the ULTRA Anchor Ring to help you recover your anchors when they get stuck under rocks https://www.ultramarinewest.com/prod...ra-anchor-ring

Forcing an anchor to recover while it is under a big rock will be the biggest mistake you would make. Even if you don't break your swivel, you will break your anchor shank or bow roller. If you force it, you will eventually break something. So instead of thinking that your swivel designed in a way that it doesn't take a side load so I can push as much as I can, please use another appropriate recovery option.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Just be sure that your windlass really has enough grunt to lift the whole lot! Embarrassing if it does not!

Jim

It’s a VWC 2500, which is supposed to mean 2500 lbs of pull. I assume it should be able to easily haul 100 meters of 5/16 chain and an 88 lb anchor.
I’ve not run the math, but no way that is a ton.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The windlass should not be grounded. The negative terminal of the motor should be insulated from the housing like the positive terminals.

Yes, I think the Mantus swivel is well engineered. But what is the cost at a 7,000 lb (6,600+ lbs) swl?

I wasn’t aware of the isolated ground.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s a VWC 2500, which is supposed to mean 2500 lbs of pull. I assume it should be able to easily haul 100 meters of 5/16 chain and an 88 lb anchor.
I’ve not run the math, but no way that is a ton.

450 pounds. But I have seen people lose anchors that way because the clutch would slip

[DefinitelyMe]

Another advocate for no swivel here. Saw two boats with swivel failures and took ours out a few years ago.

We use a single bow shackle without an enlarged pin. The pin fits through a standard link on chain that is at least one size smaller. So 7/16" chain takes a 1/2" shackle with the pin through the end link. Our 5/16" chain just about accepts a 7/16" shackle.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

This is how it’s been done to get in spec. My chain was ordered like this from Acco Chain. They even x-ray and test the links and then hot dip galvanize together with the chain.

When you zoom in you can see the larger end link:

Mine is the same

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

I also noted that forcing an anchor to recover while it is under a big rock will be the biggest mistake you would make. Even if you don't break your swivel, you will break your anchor shank or bow roller. If you force it, you will eventually break something. So instead of thinking that your swivel designed in a way that it doesn't take a side load so I can push as much as I can, please use another appropriate recovery option.

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

This is a really strong argument when put together with that testimonial. As long as the swivel isn't the weak point, then I think it's worth using.

I agree with both of you on all of this.



HOWEVER, I don't think we should be unnecessarily levering the anchor shank either. Nor should we be introducing a weak point in the ground tackle.


So I don't like the idea of the Ultra swivel or any swivel attached to the anchor shank in a way which will increase the lever arm. If you must use a swivel, put a few links of chain between the swivel and the anchor. Or use one like the Mantus which is designed to prevent this. Or better yet, just don't use a swivel -- I'm with the other experienced cruisers on here who say they are mostly unnecessary. My experience is just like this:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. . . Many experienced cruisers, ourselves included, disagree that swivels are a "good thing". In a few instances they add a bit of convenience, but are always an added failure point to be considered.

We stopped using one some years ago when Nolex published a photo of one in the very act of failing. We have noted zero issues with not having one in the thousands of anchorings since then.

Jim

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree with both of you on all of this.



HOWEVER, I don't think we should be unnecessarily levering the anchor shank either. Nor should we be introducing a weak point in the ground tackle.


So I don't like the idea of the Ultra swivel or any swivel attached to the anchor shank in a way which will increase the lever arm. If you must use a swivel, put a few links of chain between the swivel and the anchor. Or use one like the Mantus which is designed to prevent this. Or better yet, just don't use a swivel -- I'm with the other experienced cruisers on here who say they are mostly unnecessary. My experience is just like this:

Let’s leave the swivels in general behind and be at least clear about the ULTRA Flip Swivel. Once we use it, we are not introducing a weak point in the ground tackle, are we?

Levering the ULTRA shank with ULTRA Flip Swivel doesn’t affect the ULTRA performance at all thanks to its lead-filled curved tip design.

ULTRA digs in deeper and create higher holding power. A rather un-mentioned feature of ULTRA Flip Swivel is its very slim point design, offering the least possible resistance for the shank digs itself deep into the sea bottom while the anchor is being set. Compare this with the Mantus swivel, which has a very large diameter.

On the other hand, that slim point design helps it to flip anchors to the right way up on the bow rollers together with its bridge and nub.

By the way, Dockhead, please stay with the shackle you are using right now while you are testing the ULTRA. I prefer you destroy that connection rather than the ULTRA you will be testing

[Ultra Marine West]

These anchors don’t seem right on the bows of these boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

The point is if you didn't see these two swivel failures, you were going to see two broken anchor shanks as above.

And that is good -- how? That it demonstrably breaks anchor shanks is a selling point?

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

Let’s leave the swivels in general behind and be at least clear about the ULTRA Flip Swivel. Once we use it, we are not introducing a weak point in the ground tackle, are we?

Levering the ULTRA shank with ULTRA Flip Swivel doesn’t affect the ULTRA performance at all thanks to its lead-filled curved tip design.

What if the anchor is stuck in a rock or jammed in some other way? That's when the problems start, and levering the shank with something will lead to no good.

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

. . . A rather un-mentioned feature of ULTRA Flip Swivel is its very slim point design, offering the least possible resistance for the shank digs itself deep into the sea bottom while the anchor is being set. Compare this with the Mantus swivel, which has a very large diameter. On the other hand, that slim point design helps it to flip anchors to the right way up on the bow rollers together with its bridge and nub.

This is an important point, rarely mentioned. The main reason why I got rid of my big Kong swivel years ago was that it jammed in my bow roller, and I was sure it was affecting the setting of the anchor. The Mantus swivel would never work on my boat because of this, YMMV.

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

By the way, Dockhead, please stay with the shackle you are using right now while you are testing the ULTRA. I prefer you destroy that connection rather than the ULTRA you will be testing

I'm not quite sure what you mean with this. I will take care not to destroy anything, least of all an expensive stainless anchor. I have an enlarged last link in my chain (which I will get regalvanized in Germany if they ever lift this ******** quarantine) and a big high tensile Wichard shackle which is stronger than any swivel. When on occasion my anchor gets stuck on something, I refrain from yanking on it -- you can bend any anchor shaft with a little force applied on a lever arm. The less the lever arm, the less risk to the anchor shaft, but in any case, good technique is more important than the actual gear.

[GRIT]

I think there will always be disagreements regards using swivels, just as there are always disagreements about which is the "best" anchor.

We consider ourselves to be experienced cruisers, having cruised since 1996, with a hiatus to build our boat. Let's say 16 years of full time cruising, and perhaps 20 countries or so.

We prefer to have a swivel. I like the idea of an oversized galvanized swivel (as Jedi uses), but I prefer a stainless one. Just my personal choice.

We presently use the Mantus Swivel, which really is a beefy piece of kit. We opted for their largest swivel, but could have gone with the mid-range swivel. At 10mm, our chain would accept both. I think it's a very clever design, and am quite happy with it, and have no complaints.

However, having researched the Ultra Swivel, I can say that if we go with an Ultra Anchor, we'll opt use their swivel as well. I like the design, and it's quite a beefy piece of material.

On our last boat, we had a 30kg Bruce anchor, and the shackle would sometimes ride up into the slot, during a change of direction of pull. One of those times, the shackle got caught in that position, and pulled the anchor from a direction, for which it was never designed. The anchor pulled out of the bottom, and we could have suffered for it.

My solution was to use a couple of hose clamps to fill the slot, to prevent the shackle from riding to the front of said slot. A much longer D shackle would have been the solution, but I never did find one that could span the distance between the end of the shank, and the front of the slot, and still fit the chain; so a "jam" was still going to be possible. The hose clamps served to "round" the slot.

Ergo, as you can imagine, I'm happy to see a hole, rather than a slot. Which is one of the reasons I'm interested in this design.

Horses for courses.

Cheers all.
Paul.

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And that is good -- how? That it demonstrably breaks anchor shanks is a selling point?

What if the anchor is stuck in a rock or jammed in some other way? That's when the problems start, and levering the shank with something will lead to no good.

This is an important point, rarely mentioned. The main reason why I got rid of my big Kong swivel years ago was that it jammed in my bow roller, and I was sure it was affecting the setting of the anchor. The Mantus swivel would never work on my boat because of this, YMMV.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with this. I will take care not to destroy anything, least of all an expensive stainless anchor. I have an enlarged last link in my chain (which I will get regalvanized in Germany if they ever lift this ******** quarantine) and a big high tensile Wichard shackle which is stronger than any swivel. When on occasion my anchor gets stuck on something, I refrain from yanking on it -- you can bend any anchor shaft with a little force applied on a lever arm. The less the lever arm, the less risk to the anchor shaft, but in any case, good technique is more important than the actual gear.

"And that is good -- how? That it demonstrably breaks anchor shanks is a selling point? "

I already answered that as above. Check the ULTRA Flip Swivel and the broken anchor shank post. That is surely not a selling point. I just wanted to say that the biggest mistake here wouldn't be using swivels, it would be forcing the anchor to recover.

"What if the anchor is stuck in a rock or jammed in some other way? That's when the problems start, and levering the shank with something will lead to no good."

We should see anchors under rocks as an accident situation so instead of encouraging people to make accidents. I take the shackles don’t take side loads in that category. We should encourage people to stay away from accidents or at least take better precautions such as using the ULTRA Anchor Ring for a recovery option for instance. https://www.ultramarinewest.com/prod...ra-anchor-ring

"This is an important point, rarely mentioned. The main reason why I got rid of my big Kong swivel years ago was that it jammed in my bow roller, and I was sure it was affecting the setting of the anchor. The Mantus swivel would never work on my boat because of this, YMMV. "

Happy to see a common understanding at a point at least.

"I'm not quite sure what you mean with this. I will take care not to destroy anything, least of all an expensive stainless anchor. I have an enlarged last link in my chain (which I will get regalvanized in Germany if they ever lift this ******** quarantine) and a big high tensile Wichard shackle which is stronger than any swivel. When on occasion my anchor gets stuck on something, I refrain from yanking on it -- you can bend any anchor shaft with a little force applied on a lever arm. The less the lever arm, the less risk to the anchor shaft, but in any case, good technique is more important than the actual gear."

I was trying to tell you not to force ULTRA if it gets stuck under a rock, and I am happy to read that you refrain from yanking your anchor on when it gets stuck on something. It is not easy to bend the 318LN Duplex stainless steel shank of the ULTRA Anchor, so unless you use ULTRA Flip Swivel, you will most likely break your shackle or your bow roller or your chain.