Open Source Anchor Project

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

Interesting to imagine a bolt-together Bugel-type anchor, too. Three pieces that can all lie flat somewhere out of the way, to be hauled out and assembled quick and dirty when needed.

I was sort of bouncing this one around in my head today. There's a couple different approaches you can take, one of them might be a slam dunk. Also wanted to mention that I said shank before in reference to the Knox anchor when I meant fluke, like with the Fortress.

[Cotemar]

No one in the anchor industry does extrusions as good as Fortress Anchors.

[d.taylor]

Feels like de javu

Mantus will help with any analytical needs you might have. We run SolidWorks CAD & FEA.

Regarding costs... back when we were making prototypes 35lbs-ers, it was costing us about $300 a piece to make. Over a period of about 18 months we probably made close to 20. It took a lot of iterations to fine tune the design. Design - Build - Test - Redesign - Build - Test & keep repeating.

We did it just like you are proposing. We live in a local marine community. There is a local water-jet guy. He could cut straight from our CAD model. A local welding shop. These were people we knew. They often did work for at slightly above cost - definitely below market rate. The prototypes were built without "paper" ie no formal inspections or certifications or specs. Basically think like if you were making it in your garage. For prototyping we did not use CNC. We doubled up on the plate for the tip & used a grinder to shape. (For production models the nose is machined). Galvanization is a little trickier. Most shops charge $0.40/lb but have min charge of $200-$300.

I agree you don't want castings - the costs of molds/patterns is totally prohibitive for single part runs. Literally thousands of $$. It only makes sense if you are making large runs.

We could also test for you. We have almost every other anchor to compare to & a very challenging sea bed to test in.

I would think your biggest challenge will be the "design by committee" effect. There are many variables to consider...

Good Luck

[Delancey]

Ah ha ha!!!! We are such awesome amateur anchor designers and we haven't even hardly drunk that much beer yet. You pros need to get out more, maybe go sailing.

Can't push on a rope, the red pins could be tapered bamboo chopsticks for all I care. You could make this bitch* with a drill, a file, and a jig saw with a bunch of blades if you had enough beer and the time to drink it.

FEA that connection bitches!

*does not include roll bar yet.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Ah ha ha!!!! We are such awesome amateur anchor designers and we haven't even hardly drunk that much beer yet. You pros need to get out more, maybe go sailing.

Can't push on a rope, the red pins could be tapered bamboo chopsticks for all I care. You could make this bitch* with a drill, a file, and a jig saw with a bunch of blades if you had enough beer and the time to drink it.

FEA that connection bitches!

*does not include roll bar yet.

Seriously, this would be so easy to make out of aluminum. You have no idea. Easy breezy!

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by d.taylor

Feels like de javu

Mantus will help with any analytical needs you might have. We run SolidWorks CAD & FEA.

Regarding costs... back when we were making prototypes 35lbs-ers, it was costing us about $300 a piece to make. Over a period of about 18 months we probably made close to 20. It took a lot of iterations to fine tune the design. Design - Build - Test - Redesign - Build - Test & keep repeating.

We did it just like you are proposing. We live in a local marine community. There is a local water-jet guy. He could cut straight from our CAD model. A local welding shop. These were people we knew. They often did work for at slightly above cost - definitely below market rate. The prototypes were built without "paper" ie no formal inspections or certifications or specs. Basically think like if you were making it in your garage. For prototyping we did not use CNC. We doubled up on the plate for the tip & used a grinder to shape. (For production models the nose is machined). Galvanization is a little trickier. Most shops charge $0.40/lb but have min charge of $200-$300.

I agree you don't want castings - the costs of molds/patterns is totally prohibitive for single part runs. Literally thousands of $$. It only makes sense if you are making large runs.

We could also test for you. We have almost every other anchor to compare to & a very challenging sea bed to test in.

I would think your biggest challenge will be the "design by committee" effect. There are many variables to consider...

Good Luck

D. Taylor, thank your for your gracious offer. In the interest of maintaining the Corinthian Spirit of the project I think it best we should decline assistance from anyone in the game professionally. I am still hoping we can get Maine Sail to provide testing. I think he is our guy.

These things said, I think you need to be commended for possessing the courage necessary to step forward in support of this project. I believe the fact that you are willing do so is a testament to your character as a person as well as to the confidence you have in your product. Mad props.

I have Solidworks 2010 on a machine at work but I've never used it. Maybe now is the time to learn. We're just doing basic levers so should be no big deal. If I get stuck I might appreciate a couple pointers if you would be willing to help in that respect.

Cheers

[Cormorant]

Very elegant solution. And the roll bar would keep the shank orthogonal to the fluke. Just need to make sure the stresses won't deform the shank insertion area.

[Shawn67]

Originally Posted by Delancey

the red pins could be chopsticks for all I care.

You may want more strength then that. I'm thinking of a tidal shift where the rode hooks the shank. It could be pulling backwards and up on the shank.

Shawn

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

Very elegant solution. And the roll bar would keep the shank orthogonal to the fluke. Just need to make sure the stresses won't deform the shank insertion area.

I might not have gotten there or at least not as quickly without your guys input, so thanks for that. I don't know that this is the be all end all but I had it in my head somehow that this connection had to be fixed. I kicked around sister angles and rivets/bolts. There several ways of doing it.

I liked the taper in the Raya but the problem with that one is that our center of effort of the fluke in the Bügel-style is closer to the tip than the back so the the inside radius at the shank/fluke is always in tension and the back in compression, whereas the Raya is more balanced for and aft.

Then "you can't push on a rope" popped into my head which is this dumb little joke am always walking around saying and it was like um, duh?

With this connection it's like we're anchoring the shank into the fluke, just like the fluke is anchored into the ground.

Yes to the orthogonal stiffness issue. There are a couple different ways, I just didn't want muck up the drawing and make people get distracted from the big picture.

Beers are on me. I confess I am really surprised to see this happen and I can't believe no one ever figured it out before, seriously. I have used this connection on a couple of occasions before so it's nothing new to me.

It's an amazing joint and it can be made very very strong. Jonjo could water jet this out of zero-gravity-space-nano-armor without affecting the temper, there would be no HAV with this one.

Of course you can do things to massage the proportions however you want but basically this is really the only joint you want to use in this situation.

The bamboo pins are a half joke. Prolly would use bolts but I can be a real scrooge sometimes. Why am I throwing out chopsticks every time I eat Thai food when they could serve me a second life by holding my anchor together! Lazy chopsticks! Get to work!

[Delancey]

Before anybody starts nitpicking because the edges of my fluke aren't concave or whatever, relax it's just a sketch. I'll work it up and get it drawn out with nested sheets, weights and areas, the whole works, just gimmie a day or two.

In the meantime I have a new stove to install today in my galley, time to get to work!

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Shawn67

"Interesting to imagine a bolt-together Bugel-type anchor, too."

The Raya "Tempest" models had a nice way of dealing with this. The shank fit into the bottom of the fluke and the geometry of the bottom of the shank/slot in the fluke held all the load. An untensioned bolt just kept the shank from coming back out the bottom of the fluke.




The Bugel shank looks like it could be adaptable to that same design.

Shawn

This is how the Spade assembles also. Not to surprising since the Raya and Spade were developed by the same person.

Mark

[Shawn67]

" Not to surprising since the Raya and Spade were developed by the same person."

I know that was heavily rumored but was that ever confirmed? Joao from Anchora Latina denied the connection publicly.

The Raya certainly appears to be an evolution of the Oceane/Sword and the marketing wording for the Raya seems very similar to what Alain had posted for the Oceane/Sword anchors.

Shawn

[colemj]

Also Anchora Latina ceased operations when Alain died.

But yes, I know the only boat owner that actually has Raya anchors (two of them) and bought them directly from Alain himself in South America where they were built by people hired by Alain.

I think Alain had a lot of fun with his alternate personality during the Raya period.

Interestingly, when you go to the old anchor latina website ( New Generation Anchors: Explained and Compared ), it resolves into Peter Smith's (Rocna) website, where he discusses the Raya in a bad light.

Mark

[Delancey]

Same basic thing, blue and yellow are aluminum, green is stainless, bet you could make it self righting and ditch the roll bar.

[Shawn67]

"I know the only boat owner that actually has Raya anchors (two of them) and bought them directly from Alain himself in South America where they were built by people hired by Alain."

I have three Raya anchors.

I bought a Raya Tempest 400 and Raya 800 from Joao when Ancora Latina was in operation. The 400 is a lunch hook, 800 is the main anchor.

About 2 months ago an unused Raya 1000 was on ebay and I picked it up. The seller got it from Practical Sailor magazine, it had been shipped to them years ago to be tested but looks like it never even made it in the water.

"it resolves into Peter Smith's (Rocna) website, where he discusses the Raya in a bad light."

Looks like his picture has a rope attached to the anchor. With the weight of the shackle/chain on the shank the anchor would have flipped to set.

Shawn