Not satisfied with Windlass operation

[markxengineerin]

I want to be able to weigh anchor, alone, in 40+ knots of wind, with big swell and current, basically in a messy situation.

My current windlass fails for a few reasons
1) The worm gear is a weak link, so I can't just lock the clutch down bar-tight (as the mfg recommends) and do my best to pull up anchor. If I do this, the shock loads strip the gear teeth, been there, done that, learned my lesson.
2) With clutch adjusted approximately to protect the gearbox and rest of the components from shock, the only ways I can hold the chain in are with one of two "paws". One is on the gypsy

Other is on the bowsprit

Neither is any good- they're not spring loaded (meaning my fingers are at risk adjusting the paws)- large backlash (allowing higher shocks to build up), no shock absorption capability. The bowsprit one is especially ineffective, as it can "half engage" with the chain and cause all kinds of weird effects and damage.
3) Clutch is not consistent in what load it slips at. I haven't measured, but it must depend on how hard it is tightened, grease amount, temperature, how long since last use, etc etc.

For a temporary improvement, I'm thinking of forgetting about the chain stopper on the bowsprit (I understand, it was never meant for this), and adding a spring to the paw that engages with the gypsy. Maybe cutting some more "teeth" into the gypsy (looks like there is room to at least double the teeth).

Does any windlass on the market come with a robust, spring loaded ratchet mechanism, and built in shock absorption? These features could be accomplished any number of ways, solve my problems, and maybe even eliminate the annoyance of needing a separate snubber, if done cleverly.

To weigh anchor with the system I'm thinking of, the single hander could switch the windlass motor on to "raise", then go to helm + drive the boat around in a way that allows the chain to be slackened enough to pull in. Each time the chain wants to pull out, the clutch slips, ratchet engages. The wave action could pull up a deeply set anchor, as they are in 40+ knots.

The windlasses I've seen are fine for a sunny day in a calm anchorage, but that's not when I need one to work.

Am I the only one with this problem? Why not solved yet? Maybe I'll enter the windlass business.

[Pauls]

I'll second your idea of adding a spring to the windlass pawl. And you'll need to do something to hold the pawl out from engagement when you want to let chain out, obviously. The limit here is the strength of the pawl and the ratchet that it engages. Good luck with it.

Dissatisfaction with the commercial product led me to build my own.

[markxengineerin]

The loading on the paw will be severe, but I think it could be reduced by making it (or something in the system) flexible. Elegant would be if the whole windlass rotated relative to the deck, on a stiff spring/damper, maybe based on rubber or air getting compressed. It would also be possible, in a flexy system, to have more than 1 pawl, for shared loading. The trick would be making it as silent as the snubber system is, if trying to replace that functionality, which I'd like to. I think the snubber is not only a waste of time/hassle but also a safety risk, getting fingers near pinch points, leaning out over bowsprit, etc.

If you have pictures or further description of what you built, I am interested.

Edit: if I think about pulling my foot out of mud, it's not a hard "jerk" that gets the job done well, it's a lower force exerted for a longer time. I wonder if anchors are pulled out similarly. The jerks from waves applied to only ~10 feet of chain hard set on pawl are HARSH as it un-sets, and possibly unnecessary if that force could be spread out for longer time.

[nuku34]

With respect to the OP:
1) Animals have "paws", winches have "pawls".


2) No small electric windlass is designed to pull the boat up to the anchor, in 40+ knots of wind, with big swell and current, unless you motor up to the anchor as the chain comes in. Every windlass manufacturer, including Maxwell, includes a specific warning against using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor. Doing so in the conditions you describe is total misuse of the winch as you found out when you stuffed the gearbox with the shock/over load. Even using an anchor stopper with spring loaded pawl, you will still be overloading the winch as you force it to pull much more weight than it was designed for (in-between clicks of the pawl).

You can of course use the winch to pull the boat forward toward the anchor in a dead calm or light wind with no swell, but not in the case you describe.


3) I appreciate the problem you have as a single hander. I have been there and had to raise anchor in similar situations. I did it by running back and forth between the helm and the bow, motoring forward a bit, taking up the chain slack with the windlass, then back to the helm. This was NOT fun and it took a long time.


4) The best way to deal with this situation is a remote control (either wired or wireless) on the windlass so you can be back at the helm driving the boat forward as you control the windlass. Still not ideal, because if you are not right at the bow, it is hard to know which direction to seer toward the anchor.


5) My 40ft "Joshua" steel ketch (which did Antarctica and the Magellan Straits) had a heavy duty horizontal hydraulic anchor windlass which could pull 4 tons and had 80 meters of 12mm chain. This winch was impossible to break or burn out because if overloaded it just stopped until the load got less. That would also solve your problem!


6) To conclude, it is not the "windlass operation", but the extreme use and situation in which you are trying to use it.

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by nuku34

With respect to the OP:
1) Animals have "paws", winches have "pawls".


2) No small electric windlass is designed to pull the boat up to the anchor, in 40+ knots of wind, with big swell and current, unless you motor up to the anchor as the chain comes in. Every windlass manufacturer, including Maxwell, includes a specific warning against using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor. Doing so in the conditions you describe is total misuse of the winch as you found out when you stuffed the gearbox with the shock/over load. Even using an anchor stopper with spring loaded pawl, you will still be overloading the winch as you force it to pull much more weight than it was designed for (in-between clicks of the pawl).

You can of course use the winch to pull the boat forward toward the anchor in a dead calm or light wind with no swell, but not in the case you describe.


3) I appreciate the problem you have as a single hander. I have been there and had to raise anchor in similar situations. I did it by running back and forth between the helm and the bow, motoring forward a bit, taking up the chain slack with the windlass, then back to the helm. This was NOT fun and it took a long time.


4) The best way to deal with this situation is a remote control (either wired or wireless) on the windlass so you can be back at the helm driving the boat forward as you control the windlass. Still not ideal, because if you are not right at the bow, it is hard to know which direction to seer toward the anchor.


5) My 40ft "Joshua" steel ketch (which did Antarctica and the Magellan Straits) had a heavy duty horizontal hydraulic anchor windlass which could pull 4 tons and had 80 meters of 12mm chain. This winch was impossible to break or burn out because if overloaded it just stopped until the load got less. That would also solve your problem!


6) To conclude, it is not the "windlass operation", but the extreme use and situation in which you are trying to use it.

Indeed. I second all the above. None of these recreational windlasses will do what you seem to want to do with them. An industrial model that is capable would put your bow under water with its weight. I am a single hander with thousands of miles and many anchorages. A remote control is essential and using the motor to get up to the anchor and a chain stopper to break out the anchor is the alternative. I also would recommend that you not wait in an anchorage until you have 30 kts and swells to take action. Much of what you are talking about is about seamanship, not equipment.

[markxengineerin]

I agree with most of your points, and if there really is no hardware solution (or easier technique) besides "bigger/heavier windlass", I will make it myself!

Even using an anchor stopper with spring loaded pawl, you will still be overloading the winch as you force it to pull much more weight than it was designed for (in-between clicks of the pawl).

No- I loosen the clutch so that no components can feel any forces between clicks- the chain simply goes back out until the next pawl engages.

Your #3 is the technique that I use, and the Anchor app directs me to the right location. I do have a remote, but never use it, because I currently need to be at the bow anyway to operate the pawls and clutch. The biggest problem is at the very end, trying to break the anchor free, if it is deeply buried. There is no way to apply a constant/reasonable pressure to raise it, and the wave action causes severe shock loads enough to shake the whole boat. I am surprised the chain, anchor, pawl, or bowsprit have not yet broken.

I think a solution that spreads out some of this shock would be an improvement, and it's surprising that no manufacturer has already solved these problems- we don't need to invent new mechanisms, it's application of a ratchet, a torque limiting device, and some damping to the existing windlass design, for a much better and safer experience, even for boats with crew.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Maybe I'll enter the windlass business.

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I will make it myself

Probably what you're going to have to do to get what you describe.

Originally Posted by nuku34

3) I appreciate the problem you have as a single hander. I have been there and had to raise anchor in similar situations. I did it by running back and forth between the helm and the bow, motoring forward a bit, taking up the chain slack with the windlass, then back to the helm. This was NOT fun and it took a long time.

This is also my technique, luckily the most I've had to haul anchor in was around 24kts, with basically no swell.

Originally Posted by nuku34

5) My 40ft "Joshua" steel ketch (which did Antarctica and the Magellan Straits) had a heavy duty horizontal hydraulic anchor windlass which could pull 4 tons and had 80 meters of 12mm chain. This winch was impossible to break or burn out because if overloaded it just stopped until the load got less. That would also solve your problem

This is sort of the line of thought I was going down. A hydraulic unit that is designed to slip at a certain torque, probably designed to protect the other components of the windlass. Then you just switch it on and drive up to the anchor. Not that there aren't other challenges that this would create. Your bowroller would have to be a tank to make sure you don't break it with your runaway windlass.

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Your #3 is the technique that I use, and the Anchor app directs me to the right location. I do have a remote, but never use it, because I currently need to be at the bow anyway to operate the pawls and clutch. The biggest problem is at the very end, trying to break the anchor free, if it is deeply buried. There is no way to apply a constant/reasonable pressure to raise it, and the wave action causes severe shock loads enough to shake the whole boat. I am surprised the chain, anchor, pawl, or bowsprit have not yet broken

This part I don't quite get. When I weigh anchor, I flip the chain stopper down and gravity keeps it down. Whenever I stop pulling in, I reverse out to transfer the chain load to the stopper. There's no need to operate it manually unless I want to let chain out. Even if I'm using the windlass from the helm, I can relieve load from it onto the stopper whenever I stop pulling in, by reversing out for a bit. As far as the shock loads from severe swell, this is tough. I've haven't had to deal with this yet, since I'm pretty good about picking protected anchorages when rough weather is due. But I would imagine, in really rough conditions, as you're pulling in the anchor, the anchor is likely going to come free before you are rode is vertical.

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I think a solution that spreads out some of this shock would be an improvement, and it's surprising that no manufacturer has already solved these problems- we don't need to invent new mechanisms, it's application of a ratchet, a torque limiting device, and some damping to the existing windlass design, for a much better and safer experience, even for boats with crew.

Sounds like a business opportunity.

[BAD ORCA]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I agree with most of your points, and if there really is no hardware solution (or easier technique) besides "bigger/heavier windlass", I will make it myself!

No- I loosen the clutch so that no components can feel any forces between clicks- the chain simply goes back out until the next pawl engages.

Your #3 is the technique that I use, and the Anchor app directs me to the right location. I do have a remote, but never use it, because I currently need to be at the bow anyway to operate the pawls and clutch. The biggest problem is at the very end, trying to break the anchor free, if it is deeply buried. There is no way to apply a constant/reasonable pressure to raise it, and the wave action causes severe shock loads enough to shake the whole boat. I am surprised the chain, anchor, pawl, or bowsprit have not yet broken.

I think a solution that spreads out some of this shock would be an improvement, and it's surprising that no manufacturer has already solved these problems- we don't need to invent new mechanisms, it's application of a ratchet, a torque limiting device, and some damping to the existing windlass design, for a much better and safer experience, even for boats with crew.

It seems like that if bow rollers were made with a slight extension, maybea foot or so, and that that extension was hinged downward, if there was an extremely heavy duty spring or hydraulic type shock that could be engaged that conected the front hinged, and the rear portion of the bow roller, that it could act as a shock absorbing lever, absorbing a lot of those heavy shock loads when your right over the anchor. Mountain bikes have shocks that can be locked out when not needed and unlocked for use when needed.

[noelex 77]

The windlass should not be subject to high shock loads. A chain stopper is ideal, but this needs to be strongly mounted and working correctly. Yours seems to be failing on both of these counts.

A short rope attached to the chain from a strong cleat can be used as a substitute for a chain stopper. It is less convenient and slower, but quite workable. Attach this when breaking out the anchor and you will avoid the high loads on the windlass. When anchored, the force should be taken by a long (10m+) elastic snubber, but engage the chain stopper or use a short strong rope as a backup to prevent all the chain deploying if the long snubber breaks.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

2) With clutch adjusted approximately to protect the gearbox and rest of the components from shock, the only ways I can hold the chain in are with one of two "paws". One is on the gypsy

Other is on the bowsprit

Am I the only one with this problem? Why not solved yet? Maybe I'll enter the windlass business.

The windlass is not the issue. It's only job is to deploy and then recover rode... straight up and down. The remote control idea is a good one if you're trying to get the boat to the anchor single-handed.

For shock loads with a chain rode, and to avoid windlass damage... use the chain stopper and then deploy a snubber or a bridle.

-Chris

[markxengineerin]

There's no need to operate it manually unless I want to let chain out. Even if I'm using the windlass from the helm, I can relieve load from it onto the stopper whenever I stop pulling in, by reversing out for a bit.

Is your chain stopper acting on the chain, or on the gypsy wheel?
On my chain one, the chain can twist or enter the stopper area at a bad angle, preventing it from engaging very easily even when I'm helping it. And it's not very heavy to the point where gravity is a dominant force vs. a rushing chain.
My gypsy one, being horizontal, needs a spring, which I will add as a temporary improvement.

Your bowroller would have to be a tank to make sure you don't break it with your runaway windlass.

I don't think the motor needs to be very strong at all- just the same power as most are using currently, or less, as in theory it only needs enough torque to raise the anchor and chain against the force of gravity. Any extra breaking free force would come from wave action or the boat's engine power + inertia, with the stopper engaged.

Another thing I'm thinking, for this theoretical new windlass, is for it to be battery powered (like power tool 20V batteries). This would eliminate the giant cables from battery bank to windlass, just need small gauge 12V wires to keep it charged. I wonder if a cordless drill motor, geared appropriately, would also work as the power source. I'm already using one of these for my homemade power winch conversion, which works well and has saved my butt on a few occasions when furling in a squall.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6wbESRs994s

The windlass is not the issue. It's only job is to deploy and then recover rode.

The traditional windlass, I understand. I am asking about/planning a future windlass, which takes the job of the snubber + chain stopper as well, because- why not?

I will run some numbers, thanks for the feedback

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Is your chain stopper acting on the chain, or on the gypsy wheel?
On my chain one, the chain can twist or enter the stopper area at a bad angle, preventing it from engaging very easily even when I'm helping it. And it's not very heavy to the point where gravity is a dominant force vs. a rushing chain.
My gypsy one, being horizontal, needs a spring, which I will add as a temporary improvement.

My chain stopper is a Lewmar stopper. It is bigger than yours, partly since my chain is 10mm, which is a larger chain size. It seems to do ok with grabbing the chain, even if there's twist, and the "gate" is heavy enough to work by gravity. The thing is actually hard to keep open when lowering the anchor. If the chain jumps too much, it can flip the gate back over and lock. I'm planning to add a bungee to keep it open when getting ready to anchor.

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I don't think the motor needs to be very strong at all- just the same power as most are using currently, or less, as in theory it only needs enough torque to raise the anchor and chain against the force of gravity. Any extra breaking free force would come from wave action or the boat's engine power + inertia, with the stopper engaged.

This was more a response entertaining your fantasy windlass, which could pull the boat forward against 40kt winds and swell and yank the anchor out of the bottom all by itself.

[Jammer]

Mark,


What kind/size of boat do you have? What windlass? What size chain? These facts would help understand whether your windlass is undersized or perhaps marginally sized given what you're asking of it.

I want to be able to weigh anchor, alone, in 40+ knots of wind, with big swell and current, basically in a messy situation.

I would not want to be on the foredeck, solo, in an anchorage, in those conditions, any more than necessary and certainly not while in a hurry. I guess if I had to do it, I would motor up to the anchor, point the bow into the wind, set the autopilot, and adjust the throttle so that the boat more or less holds position. Then go forward on a jackline to release the snubber and pawls.


Re twist in the chain, replacing your bow roller with a flat one with a center groove should help.

Another thing I'm thinking, for this theoretical new windlass, is for it to be battery powered (like power tool 20V batteries). This would eliminate the giant cables from battery bank to windlass, just need small gauge 12V wires to keep it charged. I wonder if a cordless drill motor, geared appropriately, would also work as the power source. I'm already using one of these for my homemade power winch conversion, which works well and has saved my butt on a few occasions when furling in a squall.

Of course you can do that with any existing windlass on the market, and people do. Usually a lead-acid battery is used, but a lithium one could be used instead. Windlasses on cruising boats typically have 1000 watt to 1500 watt motors. The largest right-angle drills on the market today have motors of roughly similar output. I'd rather have something permanently installed.

[markxengineerin]

37' pacific seacraft, 5/16" chain, maxwell 1500 windlass (1200 watt motor, 1500 pound max pull rating). That's enough for my anchor plus about 1500 feet of chain, so, motor size is not the limitation, but rather the impossibility of using it to its potential without a better locking mechanism and other features described above.

About the drill powertrain idea- it would be permanently installed- just brainstorming an easy place to get a mass produced (ie cheap and well-proven) battery and motor combo.

Autopilot- mine isn't smart enough to hover in position in bad conditions, I have to be making forward progress. I also have a remote for the autopilot, but I'm not smart enough to operate it from the bow, while also dealing with the chain! I do think the nicer idea is for the human never to have to go forward at all- press a button and anchor pulls in when it can, snubs itself when it can't, and then shuts off (or just clutch slips) when it reaches the bow roller.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Autopilot- mine isn't smart enough to hover in position in bad conditions, I have to be making forward progress. I also have a remote for the autopilot, but I'm not smart enough to operate it from the bow, while also dealing with the chain! I do think the nicer idea is for the human never to have to go forward at all- press a button and anchor pulls in when it can, snubs itself when it can't, and then shuts off (or just clutch slips) when it reaches the bow roller.

Autopilot remote? Ours AP only steers, doesn't control gears or throttles. A Yacht Controller (a brand name) or similar could do everything... but I think most AP remotes only steer or jog.

Our anchor pretty much does that kind of retrieve, though, if I choose to bring in the anchor while I'm still on the flybridge. Remote windlass controls, Voila!

That's influenced by the anchor davit/roller, anchor design and size, etc.

I do have to go forward to open the chain stopper before deploying the anchor... and to close the chain stopper just before we do the final anchor set... and after retrieving the anchor when we're getting underway. Brief walk forward, do it, done.

-Chris