Minimum anchors size, what’s the point?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

For the new generation anchors (Rocna, Mantus, Manson) I go one size smaller unless it's at the low end of the chart already. It should be noted that weight reduction is a huge factor in all my decisions.

Depends on the yacht. Ours is heavy at 40 tons, 58 feet. The charts typically size by length only. I sized UP for our Rocna 55. Never regretted the decision. We dragged in muck during Hurricane Hermine anchored at Newport. Most of the time it never moves an inch.

Nobody ever complains, “my anchor is too big”

[laika]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

I have a 34 ft. sailboat and I use a 45lb. Mantus and I sleep at night!

45lb mantus on a 27' here. Very proud on the bow! For me, the difference between having to manhandle a 35# or 45# anchor is negligible, so why not?

But I occasionally have trouble penetrating thick grass, and sometimes wonder if having a smaller spade surface area would be beneficial for cutting thru given boat weight and setting power.

[Mike OReilly]

My recommendation for bower anchor choice is to get the largest new-gen anchor your boat and crew can reasonably manage. By this I mean it should be big, but not so large as to be overly difficult to deploy, haul up, and store.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My recommendation for bower anchor choice is to get the largest new-gen anchor your boat and crew can reasonably manage. By this I mean it should be big, but not so large as to be overly difficult to deploy, haul up, and store.

So is 45 pounds of NG on a 27-foot boat ridiculous or not? I'm pretty sure 13 pounds will work (probably the most common size on 27' boats), 25 pounds is conservative, and 35 pounds would be serious overkill. 45 pounds is equivalent to 100-120 pounds on my 34' catamaran. Yeah, the windlass could have lifted it but.... In fact, I consider 45 pounds to be overkill on a 34' cat, with windage equivalent to the 38-40' mono. Yes, you need to understand how to use an anchor.



I'm sorry, but "not overly difficult" is not an engineering basis, since any boat can be rigged to lift practically anything. I respect you experience, but for heavens sake, there must be a basis. OF course, with a 120-pound NG on my cat, I wouldn't drag, no matter what I did wrong.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by thinwater

So is 45 pounds of NG on a 27-foot boat ridiculous or not? I'm pretty sure 13 pounds will work (probably the most common size on 27' boats), 25 pounds is conservative, and 35 pounds would be serious overkill. 45 pounds is equivalent to 100-120 pounds on my 34' catamaran.

I think Mike’s recommendation is sensible for a cruising boat.

If an extra 30lb (15 kg) is a big deal on a particular vessel, the question is answered and the anchor is too large.

Originally Posted by thinwater

I wouldn't drag, no matter what I did wrong.

Is that a bad thing if it can be achieved within Mike’s definition of an “anchor that your boat and crew can reasonably manage”?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

So is 45 pounds of NG on a 27-foot boat ridiculous or not? I'm pretty sure 13 pounds will work (probably the most common size on 27' boats), 25 pounds is conservative, and 35 pounds would be serious overkill. 45 pounds is equivalent to 100-120 pounds on my 34' catamaran. Yeah, the windlass could have lifted it but.... In fact, I consider 45 pounds to be overkill on a 34' cat, with windage equivalent to the 38-40' mono. Yes, you need to understand how to use an anchor.

I'm sorry, but "not overly difficult" is not an engineering basis, since any boat can be rigged to lift practically anything. I respect you experience, but for heavens sake, there must be a basis. OF course, with a 120-pound NG on my cat, I wouldn't drag, no matter what I did wrong.

There is not One Right Answer to most things with cruising, let alone anchoring. You will quickly learn what "not overly difficult" means once you've had to reset three or four times in short succession. Sorry if that's not definitive enough, but I think that's part of the problem with all the purveyors of anchor test wisdom; they're looking for a simple answer to an complex problem.

I said it is possible to be too big. But as someone who anchors a lot, and in sometimes challenging situations, I see no reason to have a proper anchor system that is less than what my boat and crew can manage.

[evm1024]

Who would not like to have an anchor that handles, sets and holds like an anchor of half the weight?

Who would not like a 100 pound anchor that handles like a 45 pound anchor.


Oh, wait! That is what new generation anchors are all about. much better setting and holding for the same weight.

[Jim Cate]

And, there are some of us who still pull our hooks and an oversized anchor is a threat to safety when pulling in a strong tidal current or storm conditions. Bigger is not always better. Rognvald

Perhaps I'm being obtuse here, but what does the above statement mean? How is an oversize anchor (whatever that itself means) a threat to safety?

My initial impression is that this is pretty much misinformation, so show me where I'm missing the point, please.

Jim

[laika]

Originally Posted by thinwater

OF course, with a 120-pound NG on my cat, I wouldn't drag, no matter what I did wrong.

It may also help you better enjoy a remote anchorage that few visit because a chart says poor holding.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by laika

It may also help you better enjoy a remote anchorage that few visit because a chart says poor holding.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain funny. I've learned my craft in the "thick water" known as mud in the gunkholes around here.


We're talking about a 27' boat. In my case, we're talking about an anchor 3 times heavier than what I used for a decade, over some pretty miserable bottoms. Yes, there are places a 35-pound NG won't hold me (smooth rock), but neither would a 100-pound anchor if the breeze came up. Seriously. If you make enough mistakes (for example, dump the chain on top of the anchor and foul it) anything will drag.



And still no one has taken a stab at presenting a baseline or basis. Simply say "twice what Rocna recommends based on my experience" or something similar. That would be a starting point.


I'm not a minimal anchor advocate. I like chain for the most part. But let's try to use numbers. 2% of ABYC Table 1 design storm loads? 5%? Pick a number. NG anchors will hold 200-300 times their weight in good sand, but perhaps only 20 times in thin mud, based on many tests. Rocks and weed... who can say? Fortress anchors can hold 50-100 times in the worst soup, but not much in weeds.


Some feel better if they are always wearing a PFD, but they don't have jacklines or a tether. OK. Some will add a PFD and tether as needed. Perhaps anchoring is like that, a combination of reason, feeling, and adaptation.

[Mike OReilly]

Thin, this is why I suggest getting the largest NG anchor and rode your anchor system and crew can reasonably manage. It bypasses all these less-than-useful guides out there.

I doubt if this means a 45# anchor on a 27' boat, but that is something each boat owner will be able to figure out.

[laika]

A 45# on a 27' is 95% ridiculous. Not ashamed to admit. But for us..

-the cost difference between a 35# and 45# is not great
-the 45# is no more difficult for me to handle
-it fits just as well on the bow
-the increased spade area gives added holding power in marginal conditions (especially sand over marl)
-it's a better storm anchor than a 35#
-and it looks ridiculous on the bow, which is great

If we had a larger boat I would be more apprehensive to fit such an oversized anchor. But for us, there are absolutely no drawbacks.

So for this crew on this boat, "twice what mantus recommends based on my experience"

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Thin, this is why I suggest getting the largest NG anchor and rode your anchor system and crew can reasonably manage. It bypasses all these less-than-useful guides out there.

I doubt if this means a 45# anchor on a 27' boat, but that is something each boat owner will be able to figure out.

You are missing my point entirely. A spindly crew with no windlass might find 25 pounds too much. A sturdy crew with a windlass can make 100 pounds work with ease. I feel like "what the crew can manage" is no answer at all. Honest, I don't know what it means.



One fellow did think it meant 45 pounds on a 27' boat. Others think it means 12 pounds on a 27' boat.


Let's relate it to the boat, not the crew. That is why I suggested a multiple of the ABYC values; they have a quantitative basis. For example, ABYC Table 1 gives 1800 pounds as the storm working load for a 35' sailboat, a value that can only be reached with all chain, shallow water, and no snubber. The wind-only load is 4 times less. A common anchor recommendation might be 35 pounds, or about 2% of the ABYC Table 1 storm load.


The actual storm (42 knots is the ABYC basis) load is about 400-500 pounds. A 35-pound NG anchor can manage that on a very poor bottom and will have a huge safety factor in a good bottom. At 60 knots the 35-pound anchor will just manage on really bad bottoms, though that should have been noticed when setting it. We hear VERY few reports of NG anchors sized like that dragging, but a few. The ABYC value for a 27' boat is about 65% of that, or 20-25 pounds, as the conventional wisdom suggests.



So that is 2%. I can see an argument for more. 3% is more like the typical "up a size" advise. Once you pick a number, then you equip the boat to handle it.



And of course, are all NG anchors alike? I'll leave that one alone, but the answer is not really. But the side-by-side, quantitative testing of anchors is a miserable business that not many people fully enjoy.

[Mr B]

How many boats would notice 100 lbs on the bow, Whether its an anchor or a body standing there,
Dragging an anchor in high winds towards the shore is not the time to regret buying that anchor that is just capable or looked great on the bow,

Put an anchor on your boat that is capable of not dragging in high winds, Because thats when you need a good anchor,

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mr B

How many boats would notice 100 lbs on the bow, Whether its an anchor or a body standing there,
Dragging an anchor in high winds towards the shore is not the time to regret buying that anchor that is just capable or looked great on the bow,

Put an anchor on your boat that is capable of not dragging in high winds, Because thats when you need a good anchor,

Two simple questions:

• Do you have a 100-pound anchor?
• Why not 200 pounds?

You certainly can tell there is a person standing on the bow of a Gemini. More pitching and the bow is down an inch of more. I would think you would have noticed. You can tell if the person moves to the transom (it drags more).



Not sarcastic. I'm asking for a basis for picking a size. I'm not even saying 100 pounds is wrong. I'm suggesting that I'm pretty sure 25 pounds is too small for a Gemini on poor bottoms, but I'm not sure what is big enough. The only tale of a Gemini ending up on the beach that I know of (Trouser Rollers) resulted from waves, no snubber and a snapped chain.