Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[sabray]

Originally Posted by congo

Sabray, wasn't trying to be smart, didn't mean to snag you I though I may have snagged someone else, just my sense of humor. Regards Rex.

see the luke is a great ice breaker. I have no sense of humor but enjoy a good problem. Also enjoy the very detailed explanations. I am getting old and remember things like cqr and fishermen anchors.
Really though I spent time on fishermen styled anchors . They did fine. Why? All sense tells us this small surface hook should just do little. But it held. Maybe we knew how to run them in. I don't remember backing down hard on them at all. We sometimes came in with the wind and set them with our motion and then swung up.
Now I sail up real slow stall and then drop
Modern design stuff into the deep. I let it settle and then start the motor and give increasing revs to set the thing. Same result but my procedure is approved by modern theory , one insurance agent and a few guys that approve things like anchors. So I'm covered. Later I get out my bow ditch and try to figure out how many triangle shapes or ball shapes I should hang.
I did really did drag the hell out of a cqr once. A Bruce once and one time couldn't set a Danforth. Maybe the anchor doesn't matter so much. Could be it is how it's used ?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by congo

Re: Anchors, Bigger is Better?

44 CRUISINGCAT

Hi Rex, we met recently at the Boat Expo at the Gold Coast.

I'm wondering what your thoughts on the topic are, given that your recommendation for my friend, who's Excel anchor dragged a couple of times, was to go to a 30kg, instead of the 22kg he had.

Also interested to hear more about what you were saying at the time, regarding lighter boats needing bigger anchors?


We may have met, not sure, we meet many at boat shows, did you come in with someone else or on your own, if you did have company with you could you tell me their name and your own, you can PM or email me if you do not want to give this information. I am not sure why you are asking the questions here as I am sure you would have asked me at the show, if so I would have given you the answers if this was the case, re your questions.
Regards. Rex.

Two of us walked in carrying a 22kg Excel anchor, which you are kindly allowing Bryan to exchange for a 30kg one at cost.


We were a bit pushed for time at the boat show, you had just started to talk about how lighter boats need bigger anchors but we had to leave. Also there was a fair bit of background noise going on, which made conversation difficult.

I'd have liked to discuss the subject a bit more, but the opportunity wasn't there.

[congo]

Re: Anchors, Bigger is Better?
Quote:

44 CRUISINGCAT



Two of us walked in carrying a 22kg Excel anchor, which you are kindly allowing Bryan to exchange for a 30kg one at cost.


We were a bit pushed for time at the boat show, you had just started to talk about how lighter boats need bigger anchors but we had to leave. Also there was a fair bit of background noise going on, which made conversation difficult.

I'd have liked to discuss the subject a bit more, but the opportunity wasn't there.

Rex Wrote:


Yes Cruising cat, I do remember very well, Bryan purchased from a retailor, unfortunately it was a bit on the skinny size for his boat, he spoke with me a couple of days ago and said he had dragged twice over a cruising season.

Once was due to his shackle, second time it was in sand and did not bury deep, I suspect it could have been a small piece of drift wood wedged across the throat opening given his location but we will never know, if there had have been a problem with the anchor not burying then I don’t think he would have been able to power set it at all. Bryn went on to say that it wasn't that he was not happy with the anchor, but after talking to me and my suggestion of next size up because of his boat being a cat and on boarder line for the No 5 Excel he asked about the cost.

I refunded him full for his No five and charged the difference for the No 6 Excel, I have also advised him that at no time would I guarantee him he will never drag his anchor, I also said same deal as you No 5 Excel, if you are not satisfied with no 6 you will receive a full refund. That is the warranty we give.

As to your second question I think you should start a new thread, I do not think I am game to comment mono verses Catamaran forces on anchor for obvious reasons, I would be happy to ring you and discuss as it is an important topic.
Regards Rex.

[noelex 77]

That is generous of Rex to allow the change.

Unfortunately anchor manufacturers rarely make house calls and show up with a bigger anchor when you are dragging at 2 am.

Whatever anchor you choose an 10-15 kg is very little extra weight and cost. When its blowing dogs off chains and the rocks are just behind, as well as prayer to the God of your choice you can give thanks for the advice received on CF .

[congo]

We have Port Phillip Bay.

Notorious to get any anchor design to hold, small boats not such a problem, this area is dredged for ships and the bay continuously tries to replace the dredging with fine silt, rich mud like goo approx. 2 Ft deep, then on top we have this very quick growing weed of which is known as floating substrate approx. 18 inches deep.

Big-bigger- better- block of concrete not much luck for any of them there, very frustrated charter operators this time of the year as these floating substrate areas are teaming with fish.

Just another reason to not state your anchor will ever drag regardless of practical size.

Unfortunately you can not advise every customer of theire anchor size to suit theire boat, I am in favour of the next size anchor if a size is boarder line,if an anchor is two big and your boat is not capable to power set the flukes below the substrate it can be easily picked out ,tangled in the chain, other observations to be taken into account when specking an anchor size, cats have twin hulls, dont have keels, mono hulls do, both react quite differntly when on anchor , windage verses wieght is another very important topic of which I am not going to go into.

Regards Rex.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

We have Port Phillip Bay.

The trouble with Port Phillip Bay is that there is very little protection which means only a few idiots like me anchor overnight in the bay, but it is a very easy substrate.
If you want to test and challenge your anchors there are much tougher locations.

[congo]

Rex Wrote:
We have Port Phillip Bay.

Notorious to get any anchor design to hold, small boats not such a problem, this area is dredged for ships and the bay continuously tries to replace the dredging with fine silt, rich mud like goo approx. 2 Ft deep, then on top we have this very quick growing weed of which is known as floating substrate approx. 18 inches deep.

Big-bigger- better- block of concrete not much luck for any of them there, very frustrated charter operators this time of the year as these floating substrate areas are teaming with fish.

Just another reason to not state your anchor will ever drag regardless of practical size.


Noelex wrote;
The trouble with Port Phillip Bay is that there is very little protection which means only a few idiots like me anchor overnight in the bay, but it is a very easy substrate.
If you want to test and challenge your anchors there are much tougher locations.


I have no doubt that there are tougher places to anchor in Noelex another reason to not state you will never drag your anchor, Port Phillip Bay in the location that I am talking about, I don’t think become that much tougher, very easy substrate you say? I think you are missing your queue.
Your anchor must be a very specially design Noelex, one of the designs among many they are having trouble with I swear look identical to yours, maybe you could hire yours as it must be a one off, could pay well for you.
Regards Rex.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

That is generous of Rex to allow the change.

Unfortunately anchor manufacturers rarely make house calls and show up with a bigger anchor when you are dragging at 2 am.

Whatever anchor you choose an 10-15 kg is very little extra weight and cost. When its blowing dogs off chains and the rocks are just behind, as well as prayer to the God of your choice you can give thanks for the advice received on CF .

Can you be a bit more quantitative

10-15kg on a 15 kg anchor is quite a bit, 10-15kg on a 55kg anchor is not very much.

Is this all embracing, CQR, Delta, Bugel, Supreme, Boss etc

To what design and weight do you refer?

Jonathan

[noelex 77]

I was thinking about an average cruising monohull yacht of perhaps 40 feet.

What sized anchor do we fit a boat like this?

The Rocna and Mantus sizing table I think are most realistic recommending an anchor of around 55lbs. Manson Supreme Spade and Ultra are next with a recommendation of around 45 lbs. then we have the very optimistic recommendations from Delta and Kobra at around 33lbs. (There are some slight discrepancies because of discontinuous nature of the sizing and assumptions about boat displacement etc and this is for steel or SS anchors not aluminium)

That is a big range and the trend goes the wrong way, with better anchors generally recommending heavier weights than the Delta and Kobra (that are still good anchors, but not up to the very high holding power of the top (expensive) anchors) The fine print does state disclaimers that make it more obvious that the larger recommendations are based on worse conditions, but these details are often lost.

As a general policy for a long distance cruising boat that anchors much of the time I would ignore the tables and fit the best anchor you can afford and the largest you can comfortable manage.

If you want to use these tables I would recommend one size over the more conservative figures (from Rocna and Mantus) as my general guide, assuming a good modern anchor.

[sailorboy1]

And we are back to the beginning - bigger is better!

I have a 60# Manson Supreme on my light 43' boat. That is 1 size larger than the chart and after all the pages of this thread I still believe is better than having a smaller one.

[Cotemar]

All the data has shown that we here at the CF prefer “Bigger is Better” anchors.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

And we are back to the beginning - bigger is better!

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I have a 60# Manson Supreme on my light 43' boat. That is 1 size larger than the chart and after all the pages of this thread I still believe is better than having a smaller one.

You are spot on with this comment. Put the biggest anchor you can fit and afford.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

As a general policy for a long distance cruising boat that anchors much of the time I would ignore the tables and fit the best anchor you can afford and the largest you can comfortable manage.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

If you want to use these tables I would recommend one size over the more conservative figures (from Rocna and Mantus) as my general guide, assuming a good modern anchor.

[JonJo]

Possibly someone can explain to me the actual increased margin of safety, in terms of wind speed, that this increased weight will produce.

Increasing weight from 55lb to 75lb offers a 36% increase in weight but a miserly 12% increase in surface area. Many people would agree that its surface area that engenders hold. But as the load increases as the square of wind speed I frankly doubt that you can tell the difference (and would be better with 2 anchors). I also note Noelex that your recommendation in post 834 differs to the one in post 949?

I see that increasing weight engenders a false sense of security and complacency but I see little evidence that a 5 knot increased safety margin (i'm guessing at the 5knot - but expecting a reasoned answer - as you all must have done the calculation) merits 1,000 posts.

But I am sure that some will be able to craft an erudite and quantitative replly

Again Noelex - you have never used a Kobra and the ones you have seen used might be used by neophytes (and/or be too small). Until you use one I suggest your opinions are just that and based on minimal personal experience. Consequently until you use one maybe you could cut back on your criticism I suggest you try one prior to continuing you negative comments - you almost sound like some anchor salesmen, in fact now I think about it - you are critiical of anything Anchor Right produce, critical of Kobra, critical of fortress, happy to display an image of a bent Supreme - which makes me wonder, which anchor are you not critical of.

Jonathan

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Possibly someone can explain to me the actual increased margin of safety, in terms of wind speed, that this increased weight will produce.

Increasing weight from 55lb to 75lb offers a 36% increase in weight but a miserly 12% increase in surface area. Many people would agree that its surface area that engenders hold. But as the load increases as the square of wind speed I frankly doubt that you can tell the difference (and would be better with 2 anchors).

I just don't understand the point you are trying to win.

Is it that you are better to just get a small anchor and save weight and money?

In the above is it your position that maybe a 40 lb anchor would be better.

An increase in surface area and holding is an increase. Is there really any arguing that it isn't?

[DumnMad]

Cotemar quote: " All the data has shown that we here at the CF prefer “Bigger is Better” anchors."

Its not rocket science, its soil science. Heavier will dig in easier. Just try with different weight picks in the garden and on various density soils. Anchoring capacity is affected by area but not as much as pick weight and depth of dig.

Most anchor users are on trailer boats in mild conditions and low weight charts work for them but this is a cruiser's forum.
Those against bigger is better really belong in another forum.
And those just trying to sell their wares should post their own thread in the classifieds.

[JonJo]

The thesis is 'bigger is better'. Full stop end of story.

My thesis is that 2 correctly sized anchors are better, full stop, end of story.

Many of the practioners in BIB actually only carry one anchor (the big one they post about).

It has nothing to do with money, unless 2 correctly sized (and I go for different designs/manufacturers) can be bought more cheaply than one bigger one.

And weight is critical? - I'd suggest that an alloy Fortress vs a Danforth might show slightly different results, or an alloy Spade vs a steel Spade. But I confess never to have tested a steel fluke anchor (we simply do not get decent ones here in Oz) but have tested, longish term, both a steel Spade vs an alloy Spade.

Jonathan