Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by scaredycat

Wow Lass,
That's a good looking blade.
What brand is it?

Let me step in here
It's a Kyocera - refer to post 201 (above).

Please try to keep up with all the posts S-cat.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by scaredycat

Wow Lass,
That's a good looking blade.
What brand is it?

Originally Posted by Wotname

Let me step in here
It's a Kyocera - refer to post 201 (above).

Please try to keep up with all the posts S-cat.

Wot, ScardyCat has been so busy practising the Zepp bend that he missed that post .

Scardy, Kyocera seem to have discontinued making pocket knives. I found a few currently for sale only in limited quantities on Amazon UK, but nowhere else.

I consider ceramic knives a specialty item - I reach for mine usually only when I need a super sharp blade and a few times in emergencies it has been invaluable. Because it is so small and lightweight, it is also the knife I always carry with me going ashore.

I am not a huge fan of ceramic, mainly because of the difficulty sharpening it, but also because it is brittle. Has anyone here had any success with the electric diamond sharpeners or using diamond whetstones? Ceramic shouldn't need sharpening often, but it seems to be a real PITA when it does. The ceramic Kyocera used was fired again at a high temp, apparently making it more durable than standard ceramic, but probably making it even harder to sharpen.

My very basic Myerchin with a marlin spike (Titanium Crew Rigging Knife) gets constant use even though it is not nearly as sharp .

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

My very basic Myerchin with a marlin spike (Titanium Crew Rigging Knife) gets constant use even though it is not nearly as sharp .

Nice knife.

My fave was:

Currey Kit

[scaredycat]

Thanks Lass (and Wotty').
I didn't mean to hijack the thread or get off topic, but it is related, especially as you use a marlin spike. I haven't used one since my Navy days.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by scaredycat

Thanks Lass (and Wotty').
I didn't mean to hijack the thread or get off topic, but it is related, especially as you use a marlin spike. I haven't used one since my Navy days.

It is not often I struggle to get knots apart, but a few defeated me lately - two loops I won't be using again and a bowline that has reinforced how important it is to dress a knot well, particularly if a high load will be applied suddenly.

The marlin spike I find particularly useful when splicing. I am not into pocket knives with heaps of tools incorporated (they just seem to do each in a Mickey Mouse way then), but I think a blade and marlin spike are a good combo .

[Jim Cate]

SWL, FWIW Minaret has recommended (and personally uses) a marlin spike that is.... well, the spike from a honest to goodness Marlin. He says that the sort of triangular cross section of the fish's bill is good for loosening jammed knots, and I can see the logic and mechanics of this.

He had a link to a commercial vendor for these beautiful tools, but they were a bit too dear for me so I now keep looking for a sports fisherman who would part with th tip of the bill from one of their victims. Would be a fun and useful project to turn it into a working tool.

Cheers,

Jim

[ImaginaryNumber]

Originally Posted by NevP

Step 4: Turn this same end back to pass behind your hand away from you. It should pass between the back of your hand and the loops created here by both lines.

In trying to learn the Zeppelin bend, of all the methods I've stumbled into on the web, I've found this method to be the easiest one for me to remember and execute. However, in Step 4, it spooks me that my hand is inside the two loops from the standing ends of the lines. It seems to me that an unexpected jerk on those two lines could result in your hand being caught.

Is this a real concern, or am I imagining monsters under the bed? Is there a faster, easier, safer way to tie this bend? How did Commander Rosendahl teach his line-handlers how to tie it?

[CaptTom]

My own method is not fast, but easy and consistent. It relies more on knowing the structure of the knot, rather than step-by-step instructions.

I'm assuming the two lines you want to bend together meet horizontally in front of you.

Start with an underhand loop on the end of one line, with the bitter end existing from below the loop and on the other side of the loop from you.

Lay an overhand loop from end of the other line over it, with the bitter end exiting above and on the opposite side as the first line (the side toward you).

You now have a pair of loops with four lines coming out, one from each "corner" of the loops.

wrap each bitter end around the pair of loops and back through the middle.

Alternately tighten each of the four lines coming out of the loops until the squarish, symmetrical shape of the zeppelin bend is achieved.

Depending on the size of the line, you can do this in your hand, but it's a lot easier to learn on a desk or other flat surface in front of you.

It's far easier to see it than to say it. (In this picture, the bottom look exits toward you, but it's the same idea.)

[ImaginaryNumber]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

My own method is not fast, but easy and consistent. It relies more on knowing the structure of the knot, rather than step-by-step instructions...

It's far easier to see it than to say it. (In this picture, the bottom look exits toward you, but it's the same idea.)

Thank you CaptTom. The "69" method is the first technique I learned. I can tie it reliably, if awkwardly. Maybe with more practice I can eliminate the awkwardness.

I've also learned the "Clover" method, shown here starting at 5:33.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d47yf9byX_Q

I can usually tie it using either an initial overhand knot or underhand knot, and starting with the initial knot either in my left hand or my right hand. But I find that unless I practice a lot I can easily mis-tie it.

I like NevP's hand method because by holding both lines in one hand I can keep the tying process orderly enough to tie the bend with my eyes close.

My goal is to be able to tie the most important knots in the dark, when its raining, and when the lines are otherwise being uncooperative. I'm thinking the Zeppelin line handlers were expected to be able to tie their knots under those conditions, and it would be good for we boat-handlers to be similarly competent. I can imagine a Zeppelin trailing its mooring lines, drifting in the wind across its landing field, and the line handlers needing to quickly, accurately, and safely get it tied down. So I was wondering if there was any historical record of how they tied the Zeppelin knot?

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

I'm thinking the Zeppelin line handlers were expected to be able to tie their knots under those conditions, and it would be good for we boat-handlers to be similarly competent. I can imagine a Zeppelin trailing its mooring lines, drifting in the wind across its landing field, and the line handlers needing to quickly, accurately, and safely get it tied down. So I was wondering if there was any historical record of how they tied the Zeppelin knot?

As I recall, the first written account of this bend was a story about how it had been handed down to the author from a zeppelin captain. I'd personally heard it from an old fisherman, but I didn't publish it so the other name stuck.

I've found that there is a lot of knot "theory" floating around classrooms and marinas. Out in the real world, knots are fewer and sloppier. It's possible, although I have no first-hand knowledge of this, that it was the same in the zeppelin world. I suspect if a zeppelin were drifting away, any old knot to bend on some additional mooring line would do, and it would be sorted out later.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

In trying to learn the Zeppelin bend, of all the methods I've stumbled into on the web, I've found this method to be the easiest one for me to remember and execute. However, in Step 4, it spooks me that my hand is inside the two loops from the standing ends of the lines. It seems to me that an unexpected jerk on those two lines could result in your hand being caught.

Is this a real concern, or am I imagining monsters under the bed? Is there a faster, easier, safer way to tie this bend? How did Commander Rosendahl teach his line-handlers how to tie it?

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

I like NevP's hand method because by holding both lines in one hand I can keep the tying process orderly enough to tie the bend with my eyes close.

My goal is to be able to tie the most important knots in the dark, when its raining, and when the lines are otherwise being uncooperative. I'm thinking the Zeppelin line handlers were expected to be able to tie their knots under those conditions, and it would be good for we boat-handlers to be similarly competent. I can imagine a Zeppelin trailing its mooring lines, drifting in the wind across its landing field, and the line handlers needing to quickly, accurately, and safely get it tied down. So I was wondering if there was any historical record of how they tied the Zeppelin knot?

I have been using the Zep bend for three years now and several times there has been the need to tie it in the dark on a pitching foredeck where the safety of our boat has depended on it. I can only continue to sing its praises. It ticks all the boxes - it can be tied quickly by feel alone, it needs just a quick yank to dress it, it holds superbly, it cannot shake loose (lots of knots like the sheet bend and will come underdone if load is removed and then suddenly applied again), and it can be untied amazingly easily following heavy load. I can think of no other knot that does all this.

Historically, I have found no written accounts of the method used. I can certainly say is no one best method, although anything that can be tied in your hands is much better than having to lay the lines on a flat surface.

I use the "69" technique in my hands using this simple procedure:
- Form the 6 in your left hand, and 9 in your right (small loops)
- Transfer the 6 to your right hand laying it over the 9 and grip the loops and the standing end of the 9 with the fingers of your right hand
- This leaves your left hand free to poke the two ends through the centre and this can easily be done by feel alone.
- Yank the standing portions to tighten up the knot.

It takes a little persistent practice to absorb any technique into muscle memory so your hands just form the knot without needing much thought. For example for a week or two while you are reading or watching a movie, repeatedly tie it then occasionally repeat this to reinforce it. There are no shortcuts here, it needs repetition.

Any method than can be done by feel alone will risk fingers being trapped if load is suddenly applied to the lines, as at some point your fingers need to be in the loops to feel the right spot to thread the ends. Sight is otherwise needed. I think regardless of which technique you use, extreme care needs to be taken if there is a risk of sudden load being applied to the lines.

SWL

[ImaginaryNumber]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

...I use the "69" technique in my hands using this simple procedure:
- Form the 6 in your left hand, and 9 in your right (small loops)
- Transfer the 6 to your right hand laying it over the 9 and grip the loops and the standing end of the 9 with the fingers of your right hand
- This leaves your left hand free to poke the two ends through the centre and this can easily be done by feel alone.
- Yank the standing portions to tighten up the knot.

It takes a little persistent practice to absorb any technique into muscle memory so your hands just form the knot without needing much thought. For example for a week or two while you are reading or watching a movie, repeatedly tie it then occasionally repeat this to reinforce it. There are no shortcuts here, it needs repetition.

Any method than can be done by feel alone will risk fingers being trapped if load is suddenly applied to the lines, as at some point your fingers need to be in the loops to feel the right spot to thread the ends. Sight is otherwise needed. I think regardless of which technique you use, extreme care needs to be taken if there is a risk of sudden load being applied to the lines.

SWL

Thank you CaptTom and SWL. I'm putting more effort into learning the "69" method by feel. I practice once a day while sitting on the throne. I find that my subjects don't mind my ignoring them for those few minutes.

PS
SWL, I've also enjoyed learning the High-Strength Button Stopper Knot that you promoted a few years ago. Thanks for that thread as well.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

Thank you CaptTom and SWL. I'm putting more effort into learning the "69" method by feel. I practice once a day while sitting on the throne. I find that my subjects don't mind my ignoring them for those few minutes.

PS
SWL, I've also enjoyed learning the High-Strength Button Stopper Knot that you promoted a few years ago. Thanks for that thread as well.

That is a brilliant way of utilising time on the throne .
Far better than counting sheets of paper or focussing on the Bristol scale .

I just love rope work. It continually intrigues and challenges me. The Button stopper was frustrating until I found an easy way of determining exactly where to thread the ends through in the final stage. This seems to generally be the stumbling block with tying this stopper. I hope my instructions help others.

For those unfamiliar with the Button, compared to using the Diamond stopper the Button enables a 30% increase in soft shackle strength and the smooth top allows easy handling. It is a better alternative to the Diamond stopper and it is not much more complicated when the instructions are understood. In addition, it is a thing of beauty and greatly satisfying to tie .

SWL

[ImaginaryNumber]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I promised instructions on how to tie the Zeppelin loop, but after a few tests on our winch I am very dubious about the quality of this loop.

It is a new knot, introduced only a few years ago. The problem with it is that it behaves just like the Alpine Butterfly loop - it can jam when load is applied to the loop (the bowline, bowline on the bight and Zeppelin bend have no such tendency under similar loads.

I may well be stronger than a bowline (can anyone test this out?), but it capacity to jam makes it very off-putting. I cannot imagine many situations where a bowline (or one of its variations like the water version, double, or with a Yosemite finish) would not suffice. I would therefore consider the Zeppelin loop not worth learning unless you have a keen interest in knots.

A mini war is currently waging on the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum regarding this loop. Knot tyers can get surprisingly passionate about knots .

This is the Zeppelin loop I tied before load was applied:

I thought I'd try my hand at a Zeppelin Loop. I think I spotted SWL's posts regarding a Zeppelin Loop on the IGKT forum here:

For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend

As SWL pointed out, her version of the Zeppellin Loop tighten up when a large load was applied. Also, as was mentioned in the IGKT discussion, this isn't truly a Zeppelin knot because, while one leg of the loop does enter the Zeppelin knot as would the standing end of the line in a proper Zeppelin Bend, the other leg of the loop enters the Zeppelin knot where the running end of the Zeppelin Bend would exit. The running end (or the tag end) was not designed to carry part of the load of the loop, and that is why it jambs.

The Zeppelin Loop that I've come up with I've also seen somewhere on the IGKT forum, but didn't save the link and I haven't been able to find it now that I want it. Anyway, with this Zeppelin Loop both legs of the loop exits the Zeppelin knot where the standing end of the Zeppelin bend does. As far as I've been able to determine with my own testing, this Zeppelin Loop will not jamb, just like the Zeppelin Bend. I'd welcome anyone to report their testing results.

A disadvantage to this knot is that part of the knot consists of a doubled line, so the resulting knot is a bit bulkier than a Zeppelin Bend.


You start tying the Zeppelin Loop by tying a slip knot. The loop of the slip knot should be a bit larger than what you want the size of the loop of your final knot to be. Although not critical, I prefer the tag end of the line to pass though the overhand knot in the location noted by the green arrow; however it's okay for the tag end to pass through overhand knot where the red arrow is too.

The loop of the overhand knot noted by the blue arrow should be opened up a bit. The main loop will pass through that portion of the overhand knot. As shown in the photo, the main loop should curve towards the side of the slip knot with the overhand knot (the blue arrow side), not the side with the big loop (the red arrow side).


Pass the main loop through the overhand loop noted by the blue arrow above. Note that the main loop passes through the overhand loop in the same direction as the standing end of the line. Also note that the main loop should be between the standing end and the tag end of the line.


Pass the main loop behind the knot, and then up and through the double loop created in the previous step.

Tighten and dress the knot.

front side

back side

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

I thought I'd try my hand at a Zeppelin Loop. I think I spotted SWL's posts regarding a Zeppelin Loop on the IGKT forum here:

For those familiar with Zeppelin Loop & Zeppelin Bend

As SWL pointed out, her version of the Zeppellin Loop tighten up when a large load was applied. Also, as was mentioned in the IGKT discussion, this isn't truly a Zeppelin knot because, while one leg of the loop does enter the Zeppelin knot as would the standing end of the line in a proper Zeppelin Bend, the other leg of the loop enters the Zeppelin knot where the running end of the Zeppelin Bend would exit. The running end (or the tag end) was not designed to carry part of the load of the loop, and that is why it jambs.

The Zeppelin Loop that I've come up with I've also seen somewhere on the IGKT forum, but didn't save the link and I haven't been able to find it now that I want it. Anyway, with this Zeppelin Loop both legs of the loop exits the Zeppelin knot where the standing end of the Zeppelin bend does. As far as I've been able to determine with my own testing, this Zeppelin Loop will not jamb, just like the Zeppelin Bend. I'd welcome anyone to report their testing results.

A disadvantage to this knot is that part of the knot consists of a doubled line, so the resulting knot is a bit bulkier than a Zeppelin Bend.

back side

Yes, that is me on IGKT . Lass was lost .

I liked the look of your loop much more than the original. I had not seen that version before.

I have found anytime a knot is modified so that suddenly load is on what was before the working end, problems occur. The original Zep loop was no different. Your loop is formed on the side of one of the standing ends so it looked much more promising.

I thought the easiest way of testing it was to tie the two forms of Zep loop on the two ends of a line, cut the line in the centre then join it up with a Zep bend (as a 'control') and compare the three knots for ease of opening after load had been applied using our winches.

This was the combination tied:

The original Zep loop is on the left and yours on the right: