Whisker Pole

[JPA Cate]

Yes, it is quite a conundrum, the issue of how much risk one is willing to take. I do think that for the way the majority of cruisers sail their boats, they'll pretty soon see that they don't want to set two poles, because of the hassle of dealing with the sails in the MOB situation. Even if they're using hanked on headsails (which few do, due to storage issues), you still have to run forward and drop the halyards. And in a MOB situation, you'd probably not clip on to run forward.... etc. etc. When it's two of you, conservatism rules the day.

And, one doesn't want to counsel people to not be careful. It is just that the face of care full, changes according to experience and values, and people feel passionate about it. Few people get in trouble from being over cautious. When I read super-conservative views on CF, (and I'll define that as people with more conservative views than mine), I juxtapose that in my mind with the videos of the guys in the Vendee Globe, moving about on deck at 20-28 kn boatspeed, no harness, no clipping on. Knowing the spectrum helps to choose where you want to be. But not to choose for someone else.

I think your implication for doublehanders to avoid 2 poles is entertaining. It's entertaining, because I hadn't realized how much cruising is about acceptable risk to individuals, till I wrote a limerick about it when we were out in the Pacific, the first time. Definitely more food for thought for folks. I think of the Hiscocks, and the miles they rolled down, that way. Times have changed, for sure.

Ann

[Snowpetrel]

I still think a spinnaker would be far harder to deal with quickly than twins on your typical cruising boat. The best answer is still an effective harness. Slower speeds with a twin setup also helps.

A Spinnaker in 20 knots is going to result in some decent surfs and possibly the odd broach if the wind gets up.

Really the absolute risks are still much less than driving a car.

[Paul Elliott]

When I have my twin genoas run up the twin slots in the headsail furler, and with the two poles secured by up/down hauls and an afterguy, the whole setup furls in exactly the same time as my regular single headsail. Dousing or socking the spinnaker takes more time than that.

But, I don't usually rig things that way unless I plan to use the twins for many hours. If I am flying the second headsail loose-luffed or run up the spare headfoil groove with it's own halyard, then furling isn't so easy. However, I should be able to heave-to with the twins. One of the sails would be backed, and the other hanging limp behind the windward one. I've never tried this though.

MOB is never a good thing, but I don't think fear of this should prevent you from flying the sails you are comfortable with. If conditions are scary, keep the sail setup simple.

[estarzinger]

regarding poles . . . let me back up a minute here.

There are 4 common ways to go downhill: (1) spin + main, (2) poled jib + main, (3) two jibs, and (4) one jib. All four benefit from (at least) a single strong pole. Note: even asym chutes can benefit from a pole when you are trying to sail deep.

So, you probably want at least one good reliable pole. Two poles are in the 'nice to have' category if you are doing long downwind runs when the wind is oscillating behind you - can save a bunch of work and increase average speed - but definitely not necessary - you either jibe the single pole more often or sail off course more often.

There are two way less common techniques (a) Twizzle, and (b) kite that (as far as I know) dont benefit from a conventional pole. The Twizzle uses a special specific pole rig.

As an aside, one of the benefits of the 'no main' options above is way way less mainsail wear on the rig. If you sail with main way out for 20 days 7 x 24 it can do a huge amount of 'aging'/wear. There are ways to mitigate that - wear patches, sheet in a bit, vang down hard - but it is still there.

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

not to sound pompus, but it does make me question the prudence of a double headsail rig with 2 poles.

Dude . . . . I honestly don't think you have thought this thru.

First from the big picture. MOB is a truely insignificant problem in the cruising community. There are way way more boats that are abandoned and wrecked than people lost over board.
Second, on a double handed mom and pop boat offshore, if pop goes overboard at oh dark hundred when mom is in her bunk . . . pop is almost certainly gone for good no matter what the rig up is. Mom will have no idea when or how far back he went overboard (unless he has managed to fire a personal AiS transponder). And she will have trouble looking for a little head in the water in the dark while single handing.
Third, Someone is WAY more likely to go MOB with a chute up than with double jibs. The boat is way less stable with the chute up. You will pretty much never round up or get knocked over or have a huge piece of canvas flogging with double jibs. Double jibs DDW is about the most comfortable calm stable a boat can ever get.
Fourth, even if they were both up, with dad overboard and mom left on deck do you really think she is going to have an easier time managing the chute than double jibs? Beth once got lifted off the deck while trying to pull the sock down on our chute. That is never going to happen with double jibs - which (properly rigged) are easily and quick to handle. Most double handle couples are a stressed getting a chute down when they are both there and here we have someone suddenly solo, possibly in a squall with a huge piece of canvas which can lift her off deck.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Jim you & Ann are forgiven for your (sailing) sins as far as I'm concerned. I'm chocking it up to a touch of eccentricity which comes with age (for all of us), which down the road some years, I may come to understand said technique, & possibly embrace it.

That said, exactly how do you have the pole rigged? Leave the butt end connected to the car on the track, & control the pole's tip as you run the butt up the mast? Then connecting the jaws to ???
And if not that, then what? Though regardless, a detailed explanation would be helpful. Especially if pics are included.

One perk of having the pole(s) on the deck, is that they make nice "toe rails" when working the foredeck when the wind's forward of the beam.

Shucks, Unciv, I was eccentric (fairly gentle term) long before I became an old fart.

So, here's the drill on Insatiable II (and on our previous two boats as well):

Pole stored up mast, inboard end upwards. Topping lift left attached, hand tight. Outer end of pole snapped onto a big pad eye on deck, just forward of the mast collar. Inboard end car controlled by a 2:1 purchase on mast.

Method, starting with genoa furled: open jaw on outboard end, release tension on car uphaul, freeing the jaw from the bail, and swing pole outboard a couple of feet. Set genoa sheet into jaw and trip the release, closing the jaw. Using the control line, drive the inboard end down to the height needed for a level pole when all is set. The topping lift will have swung the outboard end up and outward, but will need to be pulled up a bit to level the pole. Adjust fore and after guys to position the pole horizontally. Unfurl sail. you're done. One person on deck, auto pilot driving.

Striking is just the opposite (fancy that!). Furl sail, leaving the pole where it was trimmed. Slack the topping lift a bit and trip the jaw release. Ple end drops off the sheet. Raise inboard end to storage position. Ease topping lift the remaining bit, bringing the pole end in to where yo can reach it and guide it to the bail. Snap it on and tension inboard end upwards to secure the pole from banging on the bail. Done, one person on deck, autopilot driving.

Makes handling a 7 meter pole easy because it is never out of control and you never have to manhandle it around on a rolling deck. Even feeble old farts can do it!

Jim

PS One man's toe rail is another man's tripping hazard!

[Suijin]

I have an adjustable length spin pole...certainly not light duty and well maintained it is not going to fail.

One HUGE advantage of adjustable length for long passages is that you can set the length to equal the distance from the mast to the sail clew when it is fully furled. A squall comes through you just furl the sail in with the pole rigged, then let it back out after it passes. Have crossed a few oceans that way without taking it down except for inspection.