Storm Staysail - Silly Idea?

[svTOTEM]

Thanks Morgan Paul - yes, Totem is easy on the eyes! To setup your drifter with a free floating luff:
*before you start - if the hank grommets are pressed close to the edge this may not work and you'll have to sew on a new luff tape over them.

1. get a length of 1/8" or 3/16" spectra or kevlar line that is roughly 3' longer then the luff length.
2. make an incision in the luff tape (on one side only and not into the sail itself) about 8" down from the head ring. make another incision in the luff tape just above he tack ring.
3. now you need a 12" to 18" long rod, roughly the same diameter as the line. metal is best as it will slide well, plastic is ok. tape the line to one en fo the rod. keep the profile as small as possible; the line just drags behind so the connection does need to be super strong.
4. push the rod into the incision at the head. when in all the way, hold the line attached at end of the rod firm and with the other hand push/scrunch the luff tape over the front end. then firmly hold the front end of the rod and let go of the back end. keep doing this until emerging at the tack.
5. back at the head, dead end the line by tying a loop through the head ring. attach the head to something so you can pull against it at the tack.
6. setup the bottom end so that the line exits the tape, extends down a couple feet, and ties to either a shackle or ring (depending on what your attaching it to on the deck).
7. tie another line on to the tack ring and make a 2 or 3 part purchase between the tack ring and shackle/ring on the luff line. This can be either tied off to itself or ended with a small cleat attached near the tack ring.
8. handsew on a piece of 1” webbing over luff line where it enters and emerges from the luff tape. This will prevent the tape from tearing, especially at the tack which will get a little load when the sail starts drawing.

*depending on the hoist length vs luff length, you may want to make the luff line longer at the tack so the sail set up higher off the deck.

**the above method also works for installing or retrieving leech lines.

[svTOTEM]

Wotname - does this storm sail exist or will you have it made? Due to the very low aspect triangle your making, be sure the sail is NOT also low aspect. I don't remember all of the old formulas for storm jib design, but basically the luff length should be about 45% of the "headstay". The tack should have a pennant so it sets about 3 feet (1 meter) off the deck so it's not catching waves. The real key with the squat triangle, is having the clew high enough - it should sheet back towards the cockpit. The overlap is very small, roughly 4' to 6' for your boat.

With a storm jib you don't need to worry about generating lift - the forces on the sail are pushing forces. keep the sail skinney with a high clew and it'll be fine. I am less confident that your premise of the aft lowers supporting the loads of the intersecting "storm stay" will work. As you point out the loading vectors on the rig are very horizontal, while aft lowers still tend to be very vertical. Does your mast pump when driving into wind and big seaway? Your clearly giving each component careful consideration. Short of having a rigger say yes/no on your proposed hoist spot, maybe tie a line around the mast at the spreader a put a little load on it. Is it easy to defect the mast? If it seems like it'll work dounble check the aft lower chainplates to be sure they're up to the job.

[Morgan Paul]

Thanks svTOTEM for the step by step directions. It gives me a great mental image on how to do it. It will work.
I have other qustions about flying a gennaker, the boat also came with 2 different tall boys. But I will search existing posts and maybe start a new thread latter.

Thanks again svTOTEM. People here are so incredibly generous with there time.

Paul

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by svTOTEM

Wotname - does this storm sail exist or will you have it made? .

I will be having it made. I appreciate your time and effort taken in your detailed responses. I am now better informed and can discuss these points with the sailmaker once I have finalized the basic concept.

I see your point about the vector loads around the spreaders so will look more deeply at that aspect. Will also try your suggestion to experiment. Don't know the answer to the pumping question as boat has been on the hard for some 4 years now - yes, 4 years - but getting closer to the water every month - maybe this year

I had assumed the trisail (presumably also hoisted) would also assist in supporting that section of the mast. The centrepoint of its luff is about equidistant around the spreaders or am I missing something here?

Chainplates are OK, old ones were internal, 1.5 inches by 2 feet, 316 SS (with significant crevice corrosion) and 3 bolts; new ones are external, 2 inches by 3 feet, electro-polished 316 SS, 4 bolts, with beefed up internal supports picking up on the timbers from the deck shelf down to the chines. Old chainplates lasted 30 years although I believe the mast was lost once. New chainplates will outlast me .

Thanks again.

[svTOTEM]

I'm redoing my chainplates now. The old ones are 27 years old. They were cut with a torch and poorly polished and now pitted/corroded.

Your storm trysail cannot act as an offsetting force to the inner stay. At times the load on it will counter the stay loads. At time it will add not counter force, such as when it’s flogging. Or when running before the wind, the angles are such that it may add more forward vector loading on the mast. It’s imply to dynamic.
Forgot to answer your spectra question from before. By pre-stretch I mean to get the line under load so that the inherent curvature and twist of the fibers in the rope is reduced. The spectra will still stretch some, but a very small amount; and it will return when the load is removed. At some point of loading a material can stretch no more and the yield point is reached, and the stretch becomes permanent distortion –which in turn reduces the overall strength of the material.
Creep is different. Creep is a characteristic of spectra that is very slow elongation under load. Creep is a permanent elongation of the yarns, not do to reaching the material yield. There’s a funny story about spectra creep when it was first developed. The scientists testing it found it’s super properties – even better then Kevlar. At the end of the day they forgot to unload the test sample; keeping the weight suspended a few feet from the floor. When they came in the next day, the weight was on the floor because of creep. Even so, the now somewhat longer spectra sample tested more or less the same as the day before. It’s obviously improved at lot since then.
Good luck on splashing the boat on the sooner side. Four years is a long time, but it is nice to take the time and do it right.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by svTOTEM

Your storm trysail cannot act as an offsetting force to the inner stay. At times the load on it will counter the stay loads. At time it will add not counter force, such as when it’s flogging. Or when running before the wind, the angles are such that it may add more forward vector loading on the mast. It’s imply to dynamic.

Of course - I should have realized that.

Thanks for the info on spectra, I am using spectra haliyards for the first time (I mustn't like change ) and coming to grips with the different techniques for splicing and knots.
Cheers.

[Wotname]

At this stage I am getting closer to finalising my storm staysail arrangement. I still plan to hoist only to the spreader height and have been looking at various ways of fitting "temporary" running backstays to support the mast column when hoisted rather than just relying on the aft lower shouds. Most ways were messy and in my book, that is a bad thing on a cruising boat.

I am now toying with the idea of a specta luffed storm jib hoisted by a dedicated spectra halyard (on a block at the spreader band) with the tack going to the bow (forestay) chainplate - so not really a inner forestay at all.

To brace the mast, I am thinking on having two "running backstays" also attached to the top of the luff rope. These will go to hard points at aft end of cockpit where a "normal" running backstay would terminate.

The idea being there is no permanent inner forestay or any permanent running backstays.

Remembering my planned arrangement is only for a storm staysail rather than a working staysail, the way to hoist will be:

Sail flaked against rope luff and well stopped with wool (or similar).
Head of sail permanently attached to luff rope somewhat down from luff rope end and tack end has a tensioning line to the tack end attachment point.
Permanent sheets attached to clew.
Attach tack end of luff rope to bow chainplate (and secure tension control line), attach head end of luff rope to halyard.
Hoist and take windward running backstay (also permanently attached to top end of luff rope) to its hardpoint.
Temporary secure leeward running backstay and windward sheet.
Rig leeward sheet and tension it to break the stopping and release sail.
Rig windward sheet and leeward running backstay.
Go below and have coffee.

Now if anyone thinks this is silly idea, please tell me because it well may be .

Originally Posted by Paul L

Wotname,
I'm afraid what you describe sounds better in theory than in it would be in practice. You are going to raise a free-luff storm sail with 5 points essentially not secure - 2 sheets, 2 running backs and the head. When you do this in strong winds it is going to be a Chinese firedrill on the foredeck. I think you might at least consider setting up the running backs as permanent. They are going to rope anyway, so they aren't that bad. Consider the conditions you will be using this in, consider how tired you might be. This needs to be a simple operation, or it isn't safe.

Paul L

Paul, This has been troubling me as well (thats why I am only toying with the idea so far ).

In the past, I have found raising a traditional hanked on storm jib always a bit of a handful so I am expecting even the best method I can come with will still be problematic.

However it is fair point that having the two running backstays aloft and not really well secured could become a nightmare. Perhaps it is back to the drawing board and sorting out some permanent running backstay arrangement!

[Hud3]

Wotname,

In my first 50 knot storm, I let the staysail sheet get away from me while attempting to roller-reef the sail in a bit. The resulting flogging ripped the clew out of the sail in about 3 seconds. Another "learning experience" opportunity!

Maybe you can control the potential flogging by running off to blanket the foredeck with reefed main before raising the storm sail. Don't know if that would work or not. The other option would be to get it set before the winds rise above 35 knots or so.

BTW, my Hobie 16 had a wire luff jib, but the head of the sail clipped onto the forestay to stabilize it while being hoisted up. If you try to set the storm sail while going to weather, you certainly risk having the whole shebang blow back aft of the mast in a great arc, and getting into mischief there.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Hud3

......Maybe you can control the potential flogging by running off to blanket the foredeck with reefed main before raising the storm sail. Don't know if that would work or not. The other option would be to get it set before the winds rise about 35 knots or so.
....

I just don't see this as practical in a Mom & Pop sailed offshore boat in the conditions it will be needed. With a full, experienced crew sure. But relying on your tired crew (probably Mom) to sail DDW in gale conditions while you work the foredeck and try and hold everything together while you run around raising the sail seems like asking for a disaster.

Wotname,
I scanned through the post above. I'm not too sure of what your requirements are. Are you looking to just satisfy someway to get a storm jib flying in the unlikely case that you will need it, or do you want an easy to use storm sail that you plan to use given your cruising plans? Is cost a big issue, is ease of installation a big issue?


Paul L

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Paul L

<snip>
Wotname,
I scanned through the post above. I'm not too sure of what your requirements are. Are you looking to just satisfy someway to get a storm jib flying in the unlikely case that you will need it, or do you want an easy to use storm sail that you plan to use given your cruising plans? Is cost a big issue, is ease of installation a big issue?


Paul L

I want a storm jib that is easy to use in the unlikely case that I will need it. Ease of installation is important and cost is always of some issue.

Current storm management is trisail and/or para-anchor. However I can foresee possible requirements for a storm jib. In the past, I only used hanked on headsails and used trisails and storm jibs.

I have now fitted a 130% furling headsail and this really limits the storm jib options. I cannot imagine taking down the furling headsail or even setting a Gale Sail single (or short) handed.

I already have a hard point on the spreader band and initially was going to use it to attach a removeable inner forestay, thinking the lower aft shrouds would provide sufficent aft support for the mast. Due to a more criticial analysis of the loads as prompted by posts on this thread, I am thinking I really do need to provide additional support with temporary running backstays.

I can't accept a permanent inner forestay or even a inner forestay attached only at the top end and secured against the mast or whatever.

Today's thought is to use a temporary wire inner forestay (attached to either stem head or new hard point further aft) that can be hauled up to the spreaders via a block and spectra line and tensioned with the headsail winch. The top end could possibily have the backstays (wire or spectra) already attached.

Set this up whenever wind exceeded a certain range (say 30+ or 35+ kts) or perhaps whenever headsail is fully furled or 3rd reef is set or when one is concerned with deteriorating weather.

As the headsail will heavily (or even fully) furled, it won't interfere too much with the headsail and a hanked on storm jib could be set in the normal manner using the spinnaker topping lift halyard.

???

[Tempest245]

Wotname,

No matter what you chose, it seems to me that you have to go forward at some point to set the sail. I went through a similar thought process and decided on the ATN gale sail. I liked the fact that it required no extra rigging. I also like the fact that it goes over my roller furling. I had a roller furling, unfurl in a storm once, not fun! As you know, a deeply reefed furler loses all shape and sets to high, so long before I got to that point I'd be rigging the Storm Jib early...it's a failrly straightforward process. Heave-to and rig the storm sail. Hopefully I never have to use it except in practice runs. Good luck whatever you decide.

[Paul L]

Wotname,
You've certainly come up with an interesting set of requirements. I'm not sure there is anything that will really meet them perfectly. Here's some stream of consciousness thoughts, for what its worth:
1. Since you have decided you won't put on running backs, why not ditch the inner stay and just go with a solent stay setup. Your J is not that large, so moving the storm jib a little further forward than might be optimum would not be that bad a trade-off. You could setup the solent stay without any additional running backs, use an existing jib halyard. Now you have the issue of storage when not in use. One thing you could consider is go with a syntheic stay. You could use a lashing on the lower-end like these guys make: Home
It should be pretty easy to set and remove. Then use soft-hanks on the sail.
2. If you are going to use the inner stay and require running back stays, I can't see making them temporary. It just seems too complex for the actual environment.
3. I'm not so sure that with your list of requirements that the Gail Sail doesn't also still stay in the running.

Paul L

[Wotname]

First of all, thanks for your input Tempest and Paul, it is appreciated.

I guess my main concern with the ATN Gale Sail is that I have never used one and it APPEARS to have the potential to be difficult to hoist. Apart from that, it fits most of my requirements.

Tempest, can you give me anyfeedback in that regard?

I hadn't considered soft hanks - more food for thought!

[Paul L]

I have never used the Gail Sail. I would imagine in the heat of battle it would be tough to raise - not withstanding any marketing hype. In your case you would have a small one given your boat size, so you would have a better ability to man handle it. It seems you really have to get the sheets on the headsail to roll and lay very flat to be able to raise a Gail Sail over it.

Paul L

[Kanani]

Once you get used to using the para-anchor, I doubt you will have any use for a storm jib. It's hard to believe how comfortable it is laying to a para-anchor in fowl weather. It'll even change the way that you view big seas. They are a thing of beauty if you are comfortable and safe.