Stopper Knot for Dyneema

[Seaworthy Lass]

As you can imagine, I couldn't resist checking out all the knots our rigger used .

Out fold down swimming platform is held by two bits of dyneema and the ends are secured with stopper knots. Not many stoppers hold securely in this slippery rope so I was particularly curious to see what had been used for this heavy duty application.

It was a single strand diamond knot. I have just learned how to tie one. It is quick and easy with a bit of practice (easier than a two strand diamond, but equally slow to dress):

https://www.paracordforum.com/thread...tutorial.1461/

I have never seen it used in this application, so I doubt if any load testing data is available, but the two strand diamond does not slip when used for soft shackles, so I see no reason it would not work.

It is a particularly beautiful knot, which adds to its value. Ugly knots just go so against the grain .

I have just tied this one loosely:

[StuM]

But not ABOK #787 which Ashley calls a Singe Strand Diamond Knot

I think you'll find that's an ABOK #545 - a form of Turks Head.

[conachair]

Thanks - saved to evernote

Spent time on google before looking for a single strand stopper but without and joy, this looks ideal, ta

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

But not ABOK #787 which Ashley calls a Singe Strand Diamond Knot

I think you'll find that's an ABOK #545 - a form of Turks Head.

I knew could count on my mentor to solve the problem . Unlike a true diamond, the rope enters and emerges under two strands. I spent ages to see how I could "fix" it and I gave up . It makes sense that this is actually a mini Turks head .

Ashley does not differentiate between a single and double strand diamond, except in the means of tying it with a continuous line. Interestingly, I was in a nearby chandlery a couple of weeks ago showing the owner how to tie a diamond knot (he was keen to learn how to make soft shackles and I think this is a good starting point). A Dutch customer came in and showed me his technique for tying the diamond. He twirled the line around his hand, as Ashley illustrates. He said his father had showed him this method. That old technique seems to have been passed down through the ropeworkers in the Friesland region. Does anyone else here tie a diamond knot this way?

SWL

[StuM]

Originally Posted by conachair

Thanks - saved to evernote

Spent time on google before looking for a single strand stopper but without and joy, this looks ideal, ta

ABOK has a complete chapter on single strand stopper knots (Chap 3)

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I
Ashley does not differentiate between a single and double strand diamond, except in the means of tying it with a continuous line. Interestingly, I was in a nearby chandlery a couple of weeks ago showing the owner how to tie a diamond knot (he was keen to learn how to make soft shackles and I think this is a good starting point). A Dutch customer came in and showed me his technique for tying the diamond. He twirled the line around his hand, as Ashley illustrates. He said his father had showed him this method. That old technique seems to have been passed down through the ropeworkers in the Friesland region. Does anyone else here tie a diamond knot this way?

SWL

That's the way I tie #787 in a lanyard.

I don't use the diamond in a soft shackle. I use your method of typing a button knot.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by StuM

That's the way I tie #787 in a lanyard.

I don't use the diamond in a soft shackle. I use your method of typing a button knot.

I will have to give it a whirl. It looked cool .

I have been making up the latest soft shackles extra long and without any buried central portion, but still with a "Better" opening incorporated to stop the legs flapping. This allows a cow hitch to be put in the middle at any convenient attachment point and coils of lines (either spare line in lockers or ends of lines in the cockpit or at the mast) can be neatly looped on. If the coil is put on the button side, there is no load on the noose and it can be easily opened single handed. The soft shackle is also reasonably held in place when open, so can't go overboard if fingers fumble. I picked up that tip from the rigger as well.

I would not use the cow hitch this way if the soft shackle was exposed to shock loads, as with the hitch in place equal load distribution between the legs is unlikely, but for storing lines it is a good technique. I will post a photo later.

SWL

[Cherp]

Good knot SL. We have just rerigged our Catalina Morgan 45 with dyneema. We did the lifelines as well. Rearranged things around the masthead to give us some flexibility with MPs sails and to improve the way the cap shrouds and Genoa forestay are attached to the mast. Love this dyneema. More the 100 kilos of wire came off and around fifteen kilos of dyneema went on, so a lot less weight aloft. Also flicked lots of blocks and replaced them with friction rings. Love it.

[Juho]

That looks like a permanent stopper knot. Any idea what would be a good temporary stopper knot (one that can be tied and opened easily)? Maybe one of the usual stopper knots with some extra loops (like in the bowline + Yosemite).

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

That looks like a permanent stopper knot. Any idea what would be a good temporary stopper knot (one that can be tied and opened easily)? Maybe one of the usual stopper knots with some extra loops (like in the bowline + Yosemite).

Nothing I know of that is temporary. Evans tested a host of standard stoppers in dyneema and found they slipped at low loads. An Estar hitch with the tail poked through the two loops before tightening didn't slip, but that would make a permanent stopper.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Nothing I know of that is temporary. Evans tested a host of standard stoppers in dyneema and found they slipped at low loads. An Estar hitch with the tail poked through the two loops before tightening didn't slip, but that would make a permanent stopper.

Ok. I checked some of the older discussions on dyneema stoppers. Back to the drawing board. It would be nice to have also some well known temporary stopper knots for slippery ropes.

[stnick]

On your smart phone a free app" ROPE 3 D " learn to tie knots in 3 d color slow motion

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

Ok. I checked some of the older discussions on dyneema stoppers. Back to the drawing board. It would be nice to have also some well known temporary stopper knots for slippery ropes.

Juho, I have never paid much attention to stoppers. I am trying to think back, but I don't remember any having been called upon to do "duty", so they don't rate highly in my thinking. I use Figure 8s if the stopper needs to be frequently untied, and double overhands for everything else (the majority), but only as insurance. I know how to tie the Ashley, Stevedore and Estar stoppers, but never use them. I suspect that if any of these was used in earnest and subjected to high load, they would be very difficult to untie, not quite putting them in the "permanent" category, but for all intents and purposes nearly so.

What stoppers would you class as truly "temporary"?

SWL

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Juho, I have never paid much attention to stoppers. I am trying to think back, but I don't remember any having been called upon to do "duty", so they don't rate highly in my thinking. I use Figure 8s if the stopper needs to be frequently untied, and double overhands for everything else (the majority), but only as insurance. I know how to tie the Ashley, Stevedore and Estar stoppers, but never use them. I suspect that if any of these was used in earnest and subjected to high load, they would be very difficult to untie, not quite putting them in the "permanent" category, but for all intents and purposes nearly so.

What stoppers would you class as truly "temporary"?

SWL

Figure eight is a good example of a temporary stopper knot. Here temporary means ability to untie it with relative ease, and tie it again as needed. The most common use of stopper knots must be to stop the end of a line to disappear somewhere. There can be also other uses, requiring more strength. I guess figure eight does not work well enough with dyneema.

I don't have dyneema with me right now, but I made one possible knot with a regular old rope. Maybe this would work with dyneema. I'll try it when I get close to dyneema again.

Fold the end of the rope so that it forms a long loop. Tie a figure eight knot using the doubled rope (picture 1). Turn the end loop over (towards you and down) so that it goes around the standing end (picture 2). Make the end loop much smaller (so that it can not slip over the node again) by pulling the ropes through the knot. Continue tightening the knot all the way through the figure eight knot (no need to make it super tight, I hope).

When untying the knot, start from the bottom of the loop. I hope the doubled lines provide enough friction also for dyneema. And I hope you can untie the knot.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Juho

Figure eight is a good example of a temporary stopper knot. Here temporary means ability to untie it with relative ease, and tie it again as needed. The most common use of stopper knots must be to stop the end of a line to disappear somewhere. There can be also other uses, requiring more strength. I guess figure eight does not work well enough with dyneema.

I don't have dyneema with me right now, but I made one possible knot with a regular old rope. Maybe this would work with dyneema. I'll try it when I get close to dyneema again.

Fold the end of the rope so that it forms a long loop. Tie a figure eight knot using the doubled rope (picture 1). Turn the end loop over (towards you and down) so that it goes around the standing end (picture 2). Make the end loop much smaller (so that it can not slip over the node again) by pulling the ropes through the knot. Continue tightening the knot all the way through the figure eight knot (no need to make it super tight, I hope).

When untying the knot, start from the bottom of the loop. I hope the doubled lines provide enough friction also for dyneema. And I hope you can untie the knot.

I have just done a bit of reading about stopper knots and the Figure 8 seems to be one of the few that can be untied in polyester after load had been applied. The reason I don't use it exclusively is that it shakes loose far too easily. This would be even worse in a slipperly line such as dyneema. Doubling it and adding an extra turn as you suggest may help this.

It would be reasonably easy to check for slippage and ability to being untied after load is applied, by subjecting the stopper to winch treatment, maybe by being pulled through a loop of line diameter size.

The doubled Figure 8 with an additional loop is starting to be a more complex knot though, no easier to tie than the one in post #1. I guess it depends on the use. In my case the stopper would be constantly subject to highish load as it limits how far the transom drops, rather than as "insurance", making it far more difficult to intie after load had been applied. Tied loosely and used simply "insurance" it may be very effective in dyneema.

SWL