Help me find dyneema loop in US pls

[jbinbi]

I have a split backstay on my Hanse 34 with a block and tackle for adjustment. This is mounted directly to the eyepad on the stern, so it is really hard to undo the cam cleat without scraping your knuckles. Simple solution is to put a short extension, say 4-12" from the hull to the block and tackle. A dyneema loop would do it. I am not sure the thickness of my backstay, but I think I should have at least a 8mm if not a 10mm piece of dyneema? I can't find this online in the US, defender has 6mm, when I google this, I get lots of rigging places in the UK! Shipping would be rather expensive. Not going to trust a no name place on Amazon for my rig.

This could also be a single piece of dyneema with an eye on each end.

Any suggestions of where to buy are greatly appreciated.

Pls do NOT suggest I make it myself. Also, I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Thanks.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I have a split backstay on my Hanse 34 with a block and tackle for adjustment. This is mounted directly to the eyepad on the stern, so it is really hard to undo the cam cleat without scraping your knuckles. Simple solution is to put a short extension, say 4-12" from the hull to the block and tackle. A dyneema loop would do it. I am not sure the thickness of my backstay, but I think I should have at least a 8mm if not a 10mm piece of dyneema? I can't find this online in the US, defender has 6mm, when I google this, I get lots of rigging places in the UK! Shipping would be rather expensive. Not going to trust a no name place on Amazon for my rig.

This could also be a single piece of dyneema with an eye on each end.

Any suggestions of where to buy are greatly appreciated.

Pls do NOT suggest I make it myself. Also, I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Thanks.

I want to find a safe full with gold but can’t find any!

Why do you think the soft shackle will open when you release tension? Who put that idea in your mind? Because it doesn’t open, not even on wild flogging around type of jib sheets.
Also, how can you know which diameter when you don’t know the diameter of the wire? Go measure the wire diameter!

Anyway, show us some pictures, you can probably add a standard toggle.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

<snip>

Pls do NOT suggest I make it myself. Also, I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Thanks.

Ok. I won't suggest that. But I will say there is a reason dyneema loops are difficult to find. It is easier to learn how to make a dyneema loop than learn how to tie a bowline.

[jbinbi]

I kind of thought a forum was a place to put up a question and hope that someone with more expertise would post a reply....

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I want to find a safe full with gold but can’t find any!

Why do you think the soft shackle will open when you release tension? Who put that idea in your mind? Because it doesn’t open, not even on wild flogging around type of jib sheets.
Also, how can you know which diameter when you don’t know the diameter of the wire? Go measure the wire diameter!

Anyway, show us some pictures, you can probably add a standard toggle.

Man, take some SSRIs. Don't really have lots of experience with soft shackles. If you are an expert about them, then explain that in your 1000 days of sailing with them on your jib sheets, they never open, and why. Don't ask me sarcastically why I think the way I do. They have a loop with a knot a bit bigger than the loop when it is closed, but you can pull the loop open. That is why I think they can possibly open when under no tension.

Originally Posted by wholybee

Ok. I won't suggest that. But I will say there is a reason dyneema loops are difficult to find.

They are not difficult to find, just difficult to find over 6mm dia in the US where I looked, west marine and defender. So what is the reason, which you didn't give?

To others reading the post, if you can answer the question I posed, appreciate your responses. If not, don't post. If you have something relevant to add, do so in a nice manner. Else don't say anything at all. I'd get less crap on Sailing Anarchy than here now.

[thinwater]

Pricey but they have them. https://www.harken.com/en/shop/soft-attachments/ Part of the reason is the cover, which is a pain; cheaper loops skip this.


If you are concerned a soft shackle could open, sew it shut with a simple seizing or a few stitches. It's sometimes done. The stitching or seizing is easily cut away to remove it.


A lashing can also work. Many boats use lashings to hold synthetic shrouds and stays. Adjustable.



I'd just splice it. I'd be done by the time I could place an the order.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I kind of thought a forum was a place to put up a question and hope that someone with more expertise would post a reply....



Man, take some SSRIs. Don't really have lots of experience with soft shackles. If you are an expert about them, then explain that in your 1000 days of sailing with them on your jib sheets, they never open, and why. Don't ask me sarcastically why I think the way I do. They have a loop with a knot a bit bigger than the loop when it is closed, but you can pull the loop open. That is why I think they can possibly open when under no tension.



They are not difficult to find, just difficult to find over 6mm dia in the US where I looked, west marine and defender. So what is the reason, which you didn't give?

To others reading the post, if you can answer the question I posed, appreciate your responses. If not, don't post. If you have something relevant to add, do so in a nice manner. Else don't say anything at all. I'd get less crap on Sailing Anarchy than here now.

I sort of thought the reason was implied. You generally can't find line with a bowline tied on one end already either. It is an incredibly simple skill to learn, and most sailors would simply learn it and make a loop of the correct size than buy one that is premade, more expensive, and close but not exactly the right size. Often a dyneema loop goes through something and needs to be made in place anyway. So you couldn't buy one already made.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I kind of thought a forum was a place to put up a question and hope that someone with more expertise would post a reply....

Man, take some SSRIs. Don't really have lots of experience with soft shackles. If you are an expert about them, then explain that in your 1000 days of sailing with them on your jib sheets, they never open, and why. Don't ask me sarcastically why I think the way I do. They have a loop with a knot a bit bigger than the loop when it is closed, but you can pull the loop open. That is why I think they can possibly open when under no tension.

They are not difficult to find, just difficult to find over 6mm dia in the US where I looked, west marine and defender. So what is the reason, which you didn't give?

To others reading the post, if you can answer the question I posed, appreciate your responses. If not, don't post. If you have something relevant to add, do so in a nice manner. Else don't say anything at all. I'd get less crap on Sailing Anarchy than here now.

You don’t get to decide who posts what. We post whatever we want as long as it’s within the rules of the forum. If you wouldn’t have so much anger, you would see I actually tried to help you. For free. Sorry I can’t point you to exactly what you need but you didn’t point me to my safe with gold either.

I had my first soft shackle in 1976. There was no Dyneema yet. I have never has a failure of any kind. That’s a little more than a thousand days, right?

So why don’t you have any pictures and can’t you even be bothered to measure the wire diameter? But expect people here to serve you what you order? You will have to put some effort into these projects to get it right. Learning some basic rope work for starters

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I have a split backstay on my Hanse 34 with a block and tackle for adjustment. This is mounted directly to the eyepad on the stern, so it is really hard to undo the cam cleat without scraping your knuckles. Simple solution is to put a short extension, say 4-12" from the hull to the block and tackle. A dyneema loop would do it. I am not sure the thickness of my backstay, but I think I should have at least a 8mm if not a 10mm piece of dyneema? I can't find this online in the US, defender has 6mm, when I google this, I get lots of rigging places in the UK! Shipping would be rather expensive. Not going to trust a no name place on Amazon for my rig.

This could also be a single piece of dyneema with an eye on each end.

Any suggestions of where to buy are greatly appreciated.

Pls do NOT suggest I make it myself. Also, I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Thanks.

Any rigger / rigging company (including online) could easily make up whatever size you need (notwithstanding their wait list). Not sure who stocks larger sizes. However, I don't think you need that.

As mentioned, more information (like the backstay size) would allow for better answers. Regardless, you probably don't want a single piece with eyes. That would be the third option. Second is a loop attached straight. Best is a loop in a basket configuration.

So just for an example, a 1/4" / 6 mm dyneema loop (which you said you can get off the shelf) in a basket hitch has a breaking strength >20,000 lb. This is higher than 3/8" wire. Is your backstay bigger than 3/8"?

Another option is: can you change the angle of the cam on the block and forego the loop altogether?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

I have a split backstay on my Hanse 34 with a block and tackle for adjustment. This is mounted directly to the eyepad on the stern, so it is really hard to undo the cam cleat without scraping your knuckles. Simple solution is to put a short extension, say 4-12" from the hull to the block and tackle. A dyneema loop would do it. I am not sure the thickness of my backstay, but I think I should have at least a 8mm if not a 10mm piece of dyneema? I can't find this online in the US, defender has 6mm, when I google this, I get lots of rigging places in the UK! Shipping would be rather expensive. Not going to trust a no name place on Amazon for my rig.

This could also be a single piece of dyneema with an eye on each end.

Any suggestions of where to buy are greatly appreciated.

Pls do NOT suggest I make it myself. Also, I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Thanks.

Please send me a DM.

[pcmm]

Why not just use a lashing to create the distance you want? justuse some 4mm dyneema line and wrap it up several times and then parcell it to makoe it stand. Though without knowing the size and loads on the back stay its all just a guess

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Pricey but they have them. https://www.harken.com/en/shop/soft-attachments/ Part of the reason is the cover, which is a pain; cheaper loops skip this.


If you are concerned a soft shackle could open, sew it shut with a simple seizing or a few stitches. It's sometimes done. The stitching or seizing is easily cut away to remove it.


A lashing can also work. Many boats use lashings to hold synthetic shrouds and stays. Adjustable.



I'd just splice it. I'd be done by the time I could place an the order.

Thank you.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I sort of thought the reason was implied. You generally can't find line with a bowline tied on one end already either. It is an incredibly simple skill to learn, and most sailors would simply learn it and make a loop of the correct size than buy one that is premade, more expensive, and close but not exactly the right size. Often a dyneema loop goes through something and needs to be made in place anyway. So you couldn't buy one already made.

Right. But I can find it. Just only up to 6mm. Was told I needed 8mm+. And the 6mm is like $15. So it seems to be way less expensive to just spend $20 to purchase. There are many for sale in the UK, the shipping would be a killer though..

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

Any rigger / rigging company (including online) could easily make up whatever size you need (notwithstanding their wait list). Not sure who stocks larger sizes. However, I don't think you need that.

As mentioned, more information (like the backstay size) would allow for better answers. Regardless, you probably don't want a single piece with eyes. That would be the third option. Second is a loop attached straight. Best is a loop in a basket configuration.

So just for an example, a 1/4" / 6 mm dyneema loop (which you said you can get off the shelf) in a basket hitch has a breaking strength >20,000 lb. This is higher than 3/8" wire. Is your backstay bigger than 3/8"?

Another option is: can you change the angle of the cam on the block and forego the loop altogether?

Thanks. I did contact a rigger, who quoted me $100. 6mm loop is for sale at defender for $15. I know the rigger has to make his $, and probably would rather spend his time on a real project so I understand his quote. But said 6mm has a breaking strength of 7.5k lbs. Hence my quest to just find an 8mm loop online.

Unfortunately, I can't get to the boat and the manual doesn't have the dia of the backstay wire. Was hoping that posting in this forum some might have an idea of this for regular 34' sloop. I am sure my Hanse has roughly the same dia of a Bene, Jenneau, Catalina, etc 34'. Maybe 6mm is OK. I thought for safety, just go up one size to 8mm.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Thanks. I did contact a rigger, who quoted me $100. 6mm loop is for sale at defender for $15. I know the rigger has to make his $, and probably would rather spend his time on a real project so I understand his quote. But said 6mm has a breaking strength of 7.5k lbs. Hence my quest to just find an 8mm loop online.

Unfortunately, I can't get to the boat and the manual doesn't have the dia of the backstay wire. Was hoping that posting in this forum some might have an idea of this for regular 34' sloop. I am sure my Hanse has roughly the same dia of a Bene, Jenneau, Catalina, etc 34'. Maybe 6mm is OK. I thought for safety, just go up one size to 8mm.

Amsteel Blue in 6mm has a minimum breaking strength of 7,700lbs so a loop is 15,400lbs, almost equal to a 3/8” wire. When you double up the loop you get 4 legs so 30,800lbs minus some imbalance between loops so 24-25,000lbs.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Simple solution is to put a short extension, say 4-12" from the hull to the block and tackle. A dyneema loop would do it. I am not sure the thickness of my backstay, but I think I should have at least a 8mm if not a 10mm piece of dyneema?

This could also be a single piece of dyneema with an eye on each end.

Any suggestions of where to buy are greatly appreciated.

I have considered a soft shackle, which I can get in the right diameter, but it would be a bit too short and I don't want to risk it opening when I release tension on the backstay.

Ok direct answer to your question - https://www.soundrigging.com/product...39435996823641 in the US offer 7mm loops. By the longer length and use in 'basket configeration' (eg doubled over so there are 4 'legs' and that will be well well more than strong enough.

Benz (poster above who asked you to dm him) is a pro rigger who does good dyneema work and is a nice guy to boot. So do DM him. He will offer good counsel and options.

Jedi is correct that a (properly made) soft shackle will not ever open accidentally in this application. And Thinwater is correct that you could put a couple stitches thru a soft shackle to totally lock it (which you don't need to do but if it made you comfortable). Also you can use rubber O-Ring or velcro loop or a whipping to choke the softhackle loop so the knot can not come out - that was done in the early days when people were afraid they would open. No-one does it any more because they don't open accidentally but it is still an option if you want to. . . . . and yes I am in fact a known 'expert' on this topic.

A lashing is probably the very easiest option for you. You can make it whatever is the perfect length for your set-up and you can make it whatever strength you desire and the only skill you need is to be able to make half hitches (I presume you can do that), and it is a perfectly good fully 'pro' solution to the problem. You will see such lashings on the very best highest tech frech round the world race boats.