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Benz · 20-03-2022, 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I intend to fill the gap with aluminum. So an aluminum piece fits over the rod, and the thimble over this. It doesn't need to articulate, since the dyneema itself is flexible?

There will be an end plate or large washer to prevent the thimble falling off. As for the loose shrouds. I will have to ensure everything is a snug fit, essentially the same as a "cheeky tang" though rather than a single piece of aluminum, it will be a few pieces and a thimble. If you have any better ideas let me know.

The other way would be to just use a tang bolted on, which I'm not really opposed to, and still pondering.. the annoying part is attaching the thimble to this tang. It requires a shackle? Or would you use double tangs and a pin?

I do have a better way, but you didn't like it: a tang designed to receive a lashing. You splice your shroud to the thimble, then have a lashing between thimble and tang. Far less parts and pieces, easy to machine (mine will be made from 3/8" plate), and the shroud gets to run straight, since it's the lashing that articulates. No noise; no metal-on-metal (except the tang-on-mast, but that's tight), no tools required to undo and replace. Just think: no clevis or cotter pins to drop, no fooling around with a wrench or pliers aloft.

Benz · 20-03-2022, 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthbm

Thanks for the thread hijack guys…

Apologies....it seems that one topic naturally flows into another related one and away we go. At least we're still talking about dyneema standing rigging....

**s/v Jedi** · 20-03-2022, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

I do have a better way, but you didn't like it: a tang designed to receive a lashing. You splice your shroud to the thimble, then have a lashing between thimble and tang. Far less parts and pieces, easy to machine (mine will be made from 3/8" plate), and the shroud gets to run straight, since it's the lashing that articulates. No noise; no metal-on-metal (except the tang-on-mast, but that's tight), no tools required to undo and replace. Just think: no clevis or cotter pins to drop, no fooling around with a wrench or pliers aloft.

You guys probably considered and dismissed the Colligo cheeky tangs? Why lash when you can splice straight on? If the reason is price but a machine shop is available, then why not machine similar?

Also, don’t forget the old ways: a larger eye-splice around the mast and cheeks on the mast holding it up… I believe I’ve seen Colligo do that as well.

seandepagnier · 20-03-2022, 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

I do have a better way, but you didn't like it: a tang designed to receive a lashing.

I do like this part, what I don't like is the tang made of aluminum and but further don't want to weld the tang on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You guys probably considered and dismissed the Colligo cheeky tangs? Why lash when you can splice straight on? If the reason is price but a machine shop is available, then why not machine similar?

My plan to to "make" something similar using aluminum pieces, and stainless washers to hold a thimble on a bolt a the right angle. Basically, an aluminum round bar that fits inside the thimble, then cut at the right angle, with a large stainless washer to prevent the thimble from moving, then put the rest of the cut round bar so the nut screws on square.

Otherwise.. how did they "make" those cheeky tangs? It looks like they cast them. Now perhaps I could 3d print something similar and make with lost-wax casting?

Quote:

Also, don’t forget the old ways: a larger eye-splice around the mast and cheeks on the mast holding it up… I believe I’ve seen Colligo do that as well.

The mast track gets in the way, at least on my boat.

seandepagnier · 20-03-2022, 09:57

What is very interesting, is I got quotes for a basic 3/8" thimble from https://craftcloud3d.com for metal. For all 6 tangs (4 lowers and 2 uppers) it would cost < $60 plus $32 shipping out of aluminum or about $150 total made out of 316. They even offer 3d printed titanium. This includes sandblasting it. I am not sure the viability.

Now obviously I would have to modify the design to incorporate the appropriate angle for my boat, so perhaps the price would be a bit higher, but still significantly cheaper than cheeky tangs. I would just have to annodize them. If this is viable it could (maybe) work for dead eye terminators also at relatively low cost ($11-$15 per terminator) The best part is, the design would be open source and easily modified for the future (change rope diameter, angle, support two splices etc)

I am tempted to get one just to see how viable it is. I would not trust a 3d printed part like this in tension, but in compression (where splicing the dyneema around the bolt through the mast would be strong enough (provided the threads don't cut) it seems like it could perhaps work.

Otherwise.. what about plastics like polycarbonate? If the tang is large enough to distribute the load could it work?

Benz · 21-03-2022, 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You guys probably considered and dismissed the Colligo cheeky tangs? Why lash when you can splice straight on? If the reason is price but a machine shop is available, then why not machine similar?

Also, don’t forget the old ways: a larger eye-splice around the mast and cheeks on the mast holding it up… I believe I’ve seen Colligo do that as well.

Cheeky tangs are certainly a good option; I just don't like their knob-like appearance on the mast. They are aesthetically displeasing, even if they work great. Loops around the mast itself are what I have now, but that's limited to boats like mine with no sail track. The problem with those is that I can't remove just one without taking the whole mast down. But I'd like to be able to replace just one shroud without having to thread it on or off in sequence with the others, like I do now.

Benz · 21-03-2022, 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

What is very interesting, is I got quotes for a basic 3/8" thimble from https://craftcloud3d.com for metal. For all 6 tangs (4 lowers and 2 uppers) it would cost < $60 plus $32 shipping out of aluminum or about $150 total made out of 316. They even offer 3d printed titanium. This includes sandblasting it. I am not sure the viability.

Now obviously I would have to modify the design to incorporate the appropriate angle for my boat, so perhaps the price would be a bit higher, but still significantly cheaper than cheeky tangs. I would just have to annodize them. If this is viable it could (maybe) work for dead eye terminators also at relatively low cost ($11-$15 per terminator) The best part is, the design would be open source and easily modified for the future (change rope diameter, angle, support two splices etc)

I am tempted to get one just to see how viable it is. I would not trust a 3d printed part like this in tension, but in compression (where splicing the dyneema around the bolt through the mast would be strong enough (provided the threads don't cut) it seems like it could perhaps work.

Otherwise.. what about plastics like polycarbonate? If the tang is large enough to distribute the load could it work?

You could definitely have a Delrin Cheeky Tang-like structure for the rope, as long as it was held to the mast with a metal bolt and had a heavy washer outboard so it didn't deform. It would be in compression, after all, and look how long Delrin anchor rollers last. It would be the easiest to machine, and the cheapest to have made.

**s/v Jedi** · 21-03-2022, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

Cheeky tangs are certainly a good option; I just don't like their knob-like appearance on the mast. They are aesthetically displeasing, even if they work great. Loops around the mast itself are what I have now, but that's limited to boats like mine with no sail track. The problem with those is that I can't remove just one without taking the whole mast down. But I'd like to be able to replace just one shroud without having to thread it on or off in sequence with the others, like I do now.

Wouldn’t it be possible to undo a single eye splice?

Benz · 21-03-2022, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Wouldn’t it be possible to undo a single eye splice?

My shrouds end in covered eye splices, and leathered over, so not easy to do while aloft, if even possible. It's pretty hard to undo a covered eye splice on the ground, especially one where the cover's old and stiff. Then to re-splice while aloft would also be a challenge....I've spliced rope aloft, but never a covered eye splice that also had to go around something.

seandepagnier · 21-03-2022, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz

You could definitely have a Delrin Cheeky Tang-like structure for the rope, as long as it was held to the mast with a metal bolt and had a heavy washer outboard so it didn't deform. It would be in compression, after all, and look how long Delrin anchor rollers last. It would be the easiest to machine, and the cheapest to have made.

If delrin is viable here, wouldn't delrin also work for deadeyes? I though about ones that fit inside a metal thimble to separate the lashings, but not sure its really all that useful.

Its also possible to 3d print delrin. So I could print a prototype out of PLA or something, then order a delrin one.. but considering aluminum is cheap enough might as well get that printed.

I have used delrin anchor roller and wore it out... This is from chain though and took quite a while, but it does wear. I don't think wear is an issue here.

As for covered stays. I was going to leave mine uncovered and just paint them to help protect UV. also wrap tape around the brummel part of the splice to ensure it remains in the best condition.. Do you cover the entire stay or just around the splice and part that goes around the mast? How do you do the uppers? I'm wondering since the sail track is no longer in the way up there.

Benz · 22-03-2022, 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

If delrin is viable here, wouldn't delrin also work for deadeyes? I though about ones that fit inside a metal thimble to separate the lashings, but not sure its really all that useful.

Its also possible to 3d print delrin. So I could print a prototype out of PLA or something, then order a delrin one.. but considering aluminum is cheap enough might as well get that printed.

I have used delrin anchor roller and wore it out... This is from chain though and took quite a while, but it does wear. I don't think wear is an issue here.

As for covered stays. I was going to leave mine uncovered and just paint them to help protect UV. also wrap tape around the brummel part of the splice to ensure it remains in the best condition.. Do you cover the entire stay or just around the splice and part that goes around the mast? How do you do the uppers? I'm wondering since the sail track is no longer in the way up there.

With the access you have to a machine shop, I'd think it would be child's play to machine Delrin for yourself. You can buy rod stock of any diameter from Online Metals. I wouldn't use Delrin for the deadeye portion, since anodized aluminum is slicker, and you really want to promote slipperiness when tightening the lanyard. Certainly the Delrin would take the compression, though.
But this reminds me of another place where aluminum is in tension: my lower deadeyes from Colligo are pinned to the chainplates: they're in full tension all the time, and designed to be that way.
Don't fear the tension, Sean!
My shrouds are covered rope to begin with: so I just put in covered splices at each end. I recently posted directions for such a splice on my website: Covered Eye Splice - Cruising with the Zartman Family You can take Dyneema sleeve and cover select portions of the shroud, if desired, or you can slide sleeve over the whole thing and splice it that way. Dyneema sleeve is far easier to splice with than polyester cover.

earthbm · 08-04-2022, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthbm

in the interest of science I made 5 quick soft shackles out of 3/16 Amsteel Blue, and coated them with two competing truck bed liners, two competing rubberized underside coatings, and a “UV-protected” textile paint. When they will dry I will hang them in So Cal sun for 6 weeks (my timeline before making a decision). Let’s see what happens. All look like paint (thin coats) rather than an external skin like TrueKote. The underside coatings the thickest. Attachment 253085 Attachment 253086

Still think TrueKote would make my dyneema shrouds’ life longer than mine…

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthbm

I did apply another coat the next day and it looks a lot thicker. I think I will do another one and then let them sit. The test is not to wait for UV damage, but to see how stiff and brittle the paint will get.

Attachment 253186

So after 7 weeks in So Cal sun (and occasional rain), my impressions on the original subject of this thread:

Rustoleum outdoor (and supposedly UV-protecting) paint actually looks and feels nicer than everything else. It also penetrated all the core. Rustoleum Truck Liner paint look better than the other alternatives described in the original message. It also looks and feels very similar to Yale Maxijacket I had on the old rigging. None of them leave any marks when rubbing.

I am inclined to put a coat or two of the fabric paint and then the Truck Bed liner on top. Still think True Kote (described here, among other places in this thread) would be the best and longest lasting option, but don't have enough buyers for 6 gallons (I'd take two and Benz would take 1, so 3 left).