Changing Old School Sail Plan

[Master56]

It seems to me that your current main is either too short in the luff, or your mast is not the correct height for the design of boat since then main doesn't reach the top even when your gooseneck is higher than normal. More than likely the main is incorrect. In my experience (60yrs sailing) most of the yachts of similar design to yours get some weather-helm when the wind pipes in, as did a lot of the old off-the-beach dinghies. We just had to learn to sail them properly i.e. as designed. If the wind increases ease the main etc. If you just want to sit there and let the yacht sail itself whilst you enjoy "watching the wheels go round and round" (John Lennon) maybe you need to put up with a bit of course change every now and then as the wind varies. I never understand why people want to mess around with the design of a proven design from a respected designer.

[Master56]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Btw, thanks for all the inputs.

It helps me to get a better picture of the over all effect of a small change.

My last beach cat that I raced was for single handers but also had a spinnaker.

Letting go of the helm to get the spinnaker down at the downwind mark in traffic could get complicated so most of us had our helms set almost to neutral with just a tad weather helm. We did this with mast rake and rudder rake,

Btw the booms on those boats Nacra F-17's (I-17R back then) was like 6' long. Mainsail had a very high aspect ratio as it's luff was 30'-31' with a 6' or so boom

Jeesuz mate, you are talking chalk and cheese. A multihull race boat and a old design clunker, crikey.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Master56

It seems to me that your current main is either too short in the luff, or your mast is not the correct height for the design of boat since then main doesn't reach the top even when your gooseneck is higher than normal. More than likely the main is incorrect. In my experience (60yrs sailing) most of the yachts of similar design to yours get some weather-helm when the wind pipes in, as did a lot of the old off-the-beach dinghies. We just had to learn to sail them properly i.e. as designed. If the wind increases ease the main etc. If you just want to sit there and let the yacht sail itself whilst you enjoy "watching the wheels go round and round" (John Lennon) maybe you need to put up with a bit of course change every now and then as the wind varies. I never understand why people want to mess around with the design of a proven design from a respected designer.

Sure it's too short.

Sailmaker went with sailboatdata.com with luff of 25.5' even though he came out and took measurements whereas the proper luff is 28'

There was some confusion maybe so I accepted the sail as I wanted the boom to be above the dodger which couldn't happen with the normal luff measurement. (next mainsail I'll ask for 26.5' luff)

As far as just watching things go round and round, after about 450 buoy races and 50 or so distances races from 19-100 miles on 4 different beach cats, I do enjoy not worrying too much about every single detail of sail trim.

Racing those boats during a buoy races, an inch or so of sail trim can lose you the race as can maybe 20-30 other small variables

Check out mister autopilot pretty much sailing by the tell tales. This from 4-5 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-Rv4UObWI

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Master56

Jeesuz mate, you are talking chalk and cheese. A multihull race boat and a old design clunker, crikey.

Yeah, I had switched from racing to cycling in 2006 after racing since 1992 or so on high speed beach cats. High speed back then.

After 10,000 -12,000 miles cycling and having to relocate after job loss, I found myself back home or at least close to home on the Chesapeake Bay.

I've always been drawn to boats and the water growing up near bay and ocean so I started thinking monohull.

I kept my beach cats tied down just above high water at my apartment on the water in Florida back in the day 1990's early 2000's but hung out on the dock with the old cruiser guys.

They were impressive with their knowledge and even though I was a rather smart ass racer guy, I learned stuff from them.....especially of what their idea was of a seaworthy cruising boat

Most had these ancient full keel sailboats with CQR's hanging off the bows of their Cape Dorys, Tayanas, Bristols, Tartans, and several other unrecognizable old boats.

So when I came upon this old Bristol at a boatyard out in the boonies sitting on stands in the weeds, I decided to ask about it even though it had no for sale sign on it. I was actually quite depressed that day until I saw the boat. (and tired from a long run/workout)

I went in search of the owner of this tiny boat yard and found out that it was for sale for the price of $2,000. I'm like so what is wrong with it?

Bought it two weeks later in June 2011 cause I couldn't find out what was wrong with it. Owner had passed and the estate was being handled by son 3,000 miles away.

It had sat on the hard for 5 years after the PO's cruise to FL from Massachusetts and it was loaded when I did get inside.

It was hard though to see past all the oxidation etc

[Master56]

Looks like you got yourself a bargain. A good seaworthy design. Personally I'd lower the dodger before sacrificing sail.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Master56

Looks like you got yourself a bargain. A good seaworthy design. Personally I'd lower the dodger before sacrificing sail.

It was a bargain then but to cruise it more than a week will take some adjustment for me since I'm used to AC, queen size bed, fresh food, and all that city living provides. (which would include libraries or a mail box to order books on Amazon)

As far as sail, the short sail doesn't seem to affect speed much as I am usually staying close to other larger boats when I am near them which is for the first 4-5 miles heading out as many never go past the shipping channel.

Speed is usually around 5-6 knots with most any decent wind with hull speed being 5.97.

Even starter front winds can push the boat with it's short sail. Temps went from about 87 degrees to near 70 in a couple hours. It was October.

It seems everyone here sails in winds of 5-10 knots as I get so much advice that I need more sail when my experience at least here in the bay is the opposite .....maybe I need to shorten it a foot more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

[rslifkin]

Remember, you can always have deeper reefs in a sail to reduce it more when you don't need as much. But it's harder to add sail on the fly.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Remember, you can always have deeper reefs in a sail to reduce it more when you don't need as much. But it's harder to add sail on the fly.

The problem is never adding sail unless you are in a hurry, and if you have bought a cruising monohull or cat, you are never in a hurry because they are very slow boats.

No, the problem offshore especially for a single hander is always having too much sail up.

[Icarus]

Well, you have answered your own question..
A higher aspect ratio main adds a better setting sail when on the wind
However, you lost quite a bit of area by shortening the foot by 12% so you really have not gained anything despite adding a 'bit' to the roach.
BTW using a sail to catch the wind for propulsion is old school either way.

[Jim Cate]

No, the problem offshore especially for a single hander is always having too much sail up.

Thomm, since you have never sailed offshore (as reported in your many posts) you don't have the experience to make such statements... and it shows! The occasional frontal passage or storm cell is a relatively rare event in most latitudes. Making decent way in light airs is a far more common problem in our cruising experience. Down here in Tasmania ("roaring forties!") we have a lot of light air days, for instance... and so it has been everywhere we've been. (No really high latitude experience and no desire to get it!)

But the main point is that the small changes that you are agonizing about will not make big changes in your boat's performance. In fact, I suspect that they would be imperceptible under most circumstances. To me it is obvious that you would be well served by a main that could be hoisted to the black line at the masthead with the boom at your preferred height. The foot should be also at the black line when the sail is flattened with the outhaul. If that is too much sail area for some conditions then a couple of reef points should take care of the issue. And you REALLY need to sort out your reefing drill so that you can do it when caught in a sudden squall. Lacking that ability you should stay home, 'cause sudden squalls are pretty common inshore in the summer. Worry about "too much sail up" should be quelled by a good reefing system. Worries about boat balance changes from minor changes in the mainsail area are poorly supported. Mainsail SHAPE, as in depth and placement of draft is more important and will affect both speed and heeling moment to a more noticeable level, so, IMO, that's where you should be focusing your attention. A few percent area changes, aloft or alow, are pretty trivial in comparison.

And mate, if how it looks compared to the sails of your racing cats is important to you, don't bother us with technical queries on sail design!

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thomm, since you have never sailed offshore (as reported in your many posts) you don't have the experience to make such statements... and it shows! The occasional frontal passage or storm cell is a relatively rare event in most latitudes. Making decent way in light airs is a far more common problem in our cruising experience. Down here in Tasmania ("roaring forties!") we have a lot of light air days, for instance... and so it has been everywhere we've been. (No really high latitude experience and no desire to get it!)

But the main point is that the small changes that you are agonizing about will not make big changes in your boat's performance.
In fact, I suspect that they would be imperceptible under most circumstances. To me it is obvious that you would be well served by a main that could be hoisted to the black line at the masthead with the boom at your preferred height. The foot should be also at the black line when the sail is flattened with the outhaul. If that is too much sail area for some conditions then a couple of reef points should take care of the issue. And you REALLY need to sort out your reefing drill so that you can do it when caught in a sudden squall. Lacking that ability you should stay home, 'cause sudden squalls are pretty common inshore in the summer. Worry about "too much sail up" should be quelled by a good reefing system. Worries about boat balance changes from minor changes in the mainsail area are poorly supported. Mainsail SHAPE, as in depth and placement of draft is more important and will affect both speed and heeling moment to a more noticeable level, so, IMO, that's where you should be focusing your attention. A few percent area changes, aloft or alow, are pretty trivial in comparison.

And mate, if how it looks compared to the sails of your racing cats is important to you, don't bother us with technical queries on sail design!

Jim

Thanks Jim, but I was looking at the word "problem" in a different way than you are using it.

Light air to me isn't a problem because the sailing is easy on the boat and on the skipper (and crew if you have one)

Many times I'll take a book to the bow and read/nap for a few hours in light winds when I'm sailing across the lower bay on a beautiful day

You don't have to worry about something breaking so much, getting knocked down, or having a sail part.

Plus most any set of rags (sails) will keep the boat moving.

I do see heavy wind though as a problem especially if you make a small mistake with sail selection or old equipment. Something could break, an old sail could get ripped in half, you could get knocked down and steering can become a problem if the sails are over powering the boat and you are unable to leave the helm for hours as a single hander because the boat could become exposed to the breakers beam too while you attempt to make changes.

As far as performance, this didn't come up to improve performance. The boat is a Bristol 27 which is all about seaworthiness rather than performance.

The luff thing actually came up because I saw on the Bacon Sails Site a mainsail that was recommended (would fit and was under the Bristol 27 sail available section) that had a luff of 10' 8". Sail maker data calls for a 12' 3" luff for a Bristol 27.

This sail was brand new and for only $795. A new main today would be $2,000 or so. My new main in 2012 cost $1600.

Also I did check on a second set of reef points but since my sail is already about 10 years old I think I'll wait and have three sets put in my new sail if I still have this boat in 2-3 years. They wanted $300 for a second set to be installed.

As far as offshore, my offshore experience is different than many here. It wasn't the miles it was the lack of COMMS, PFD's, and shelter of any kind. (or boat size. Got stuck 15 miles off once on a 14' aluminum boat. I was 17 years old.)

I'd say max offshore on my own boat either beach cat, small power boat, or this old monohull is around 20 miles but most of the time it was done without a radio of any sort and many times no one knew where I (we) was.

This monohull I bought in 2011 is the first boat I have owned with a radio, depth finder, charts, compass, or GPS so I do know what it is like to be out of site of land with at times no way to get back unless I could fix the problem and no way to call for help.

Btw, the one time I did need to signal for help I lit a fire on a rag on the end of an oar and waved it high above my head. Being a teenager I didn't think about all the gas that we poured on the rag that went into the boat before I lit it off! Good news is they saw us and we were picked up at about 4 am after drifting most of the night....and the boat didn't ignite!

After the Bacon Site thing I saw this Contessa 26 with what appeared to be a main with shorter foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3pcXWUZ5Pk

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Well, you have answered your own question..
A higher aspect ratio main adds a better setting sail when on the wind
However, you lost quite a bit of area by shortening the foot by 12% so you really have not gained anything despite adding a 'bit' to the roach.
BTW using a sail to catch the wind for propulsion is old school either way.

I'm thinking it won't make much difference either way with a slightly shorter foot and slightly longer luff than I have now so if one becomes available again at Bacon Sail for a decent price like the $795 for that new one a few years ago I will go ahead and get it.

Otherwise if I have to have one made in a few years, I may just lengthen the luff by a foot and keep the foot of the sail close to what it is now so the reef line boom pulleys don't have to be moved

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Otherwise if I have to have one made in a few years, I may just lengthen the luff by a foot and keep the foot of the sail close to what it is now so the reef line boom pulleys don't have to be moved

That's what I'd probably do. And give some thought to where you'd want the reef points.



Realistically, changing the aspect ratio of the sail likely won't buy you much of anything unless you change the whole rig. You just wouldn't be changing enough to see much gain (and certainly nothing more than you'd get by maxing out the sail area within what the current rig allows).

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That's what I'd probably do. And give some thought to where you'd want the reef points.



Realistically, changing the aspect ratio of the sail likely won't buy you much of anything unless you change the whole rig. You just wouldn't be changing enough to see much gain (and certainly nothing more than you'd get by maxing out the sail area within what the current rig allows).

Yeah but again it wasn't about making a gain it was about the main's foot looking a bit out of proportion a few times in pictures.

Many old school boats had these long booms so I was thinking maybe a slight more height and less foot would be nice.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yeah but again it wasn't about making a gain it was about the main's foot looking a bit out of proportion a few times in pictures.

Many old school boats had these long booms so I was thinking maybe a slight more height and less foot would be nice.

It's not so much out of proportion as just a different design philosophy. They didn't necessarily have the ability to make a tall, high aspect rig sturdy enough at the time (or didn't trust that they could), so they made the rig longer instead to get the desired size. It does look weird compared to a modern rig, much like a gaff rig looks strange in comparison. But it's not necessarily bad or wrong, just different.