Appropiate rope sizes for various applications.

[Weyalan]

For what it is worth it is definitely worth shopping around for your rope. Local chandlers charge like wounded bulls for rope, and there are plenty of better deals out there. It is much cheaper to buy rope by the reel (typically either 100m or 200m per reel), this can cost you as little as 33%-50% of the per metre price of buying from a Chandlery. I sometimes buy a real and even though I don't need that much, I defray the cost by selling of the rest that I don't need.

I had better not mention names, but I will say that it may well be worth checking out Australian rope manufacturers (there are 2 or 3), and making a call, because sometimes they will sell directly to you, and this will almost certainly be your cheapest option. I just took delivery, from an aussie rope manufacturer, of 200m of 10m Spectra for which I paid almost exactly 40% of the price quoted by my local chandlery.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

I had better not mention names, but I will say that it may well be worth checking out Australian rope manufacturers (there are 2 or 3), and making a call, because sometimes they will sell directly to you, and this will almost certainly be your cheapest option.

And most are run and owned by Kiwis Shhh.... don't mention the Rugby League World Champs either, those blasted kiwis stole that as well

Donaghys (Melbourne) may sell direct but are reluctant usually.
IRB (Surfers) didn't last time I asked.
Best bet is probably another one in Melbourne who's name escapes me right at the moment. Tiger or Tempest or similar from fuzzy memory. In the suburb of Mordialec (spelt wrong but sounds the same) by a rock'n great bar overlooking a small river/ big creek. I'm not quite Google maps am I?

The main reason chandlers charge more and also why it's cheaper buy the reel is basically 'off-cuts' as in it is very unusual to chop into a 100mt reel and sell every metre of it. So most allow for short ends that often can be useless. Also chandlers do tend to have high rents as they have to be where the punters want them to be for their convenience. The manufacturers can be tucked away out in the back blocks where no-one wants to go hence a lot cheaper.

But some do run big margins for sure.

A slight aside - I got to see the detailed report from a $6 million dollar world wide survey carried out for a large building supply group. 75% of punters questioned shopped where they did for convenience 1st. 2nd with only 20% was price. I found that quite interesting really.

[ribbony]

Did the Kiwis win the cricket last weekend ?

I sent an email to a manufacturer for 2 drums of rope and did not get a reply. Might persist with a call.

There is a supplier in the west of Sydney that only sells rope and does splicing. He got all the rope for the movie set "Master and Command".

He quoted me this morning $149 for 100mt 10mm Southern Ocean DB Poly. $179 for 12mm, SPectra was $376 for 8mm and $475 for 10mm. the by the meter price is only 10% more, that sounds reasonable as you can get some variety in colours. He does not have a web site but goes by the name of "Splicing & Cutting Services".

[Weyalan]

Originally Posted by ribbony

He quoted me this morning $149 for 100mt 10mm Southern Ocean DB Poly. $179 for 12mm, SPectra was $376 for 8mm and $475 for 10mm. the by the meter price is only 10% more, that sounds reasonable as you can get some variety in colours. He does not have a web site but goes by the name of "Splicing & Cutting Services".

Those prices are good, especially from a retailer rather than a manufacturer, and especially if they include GST. I can get cheaper, but not much. I will check it out though, for when I cannt afford to buy reels (because my source is strictly by the reel).

[ribbony]

Includes GST.

Another supplier had good prices but only on 200mt reels, 100mt reels are plenty for our needs.

What size of rope does anyone use for lazy jacks ?? On our old E26 we used venetial blind cord, but we figure a step up to something stronger may be warranted here.

[Cheechako]

+1 on the suggestion of as large as possible. Anything under 7/16 is to hard on my hands.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

To summarise:
Halyards - Vectran/Spectra if you can afford, Sta-Set if you can't. Check your sheaves.
Sheets - Double braid is fine

I think the Pardeys recommend Sta-Set X for the same reasons you give, but when I looked up the stretch given by the manufacturers of New England and Samson, I don't see the difference, unless there is something much better about Samson double braid over other brands of double braid, which I didn't research.

Sta-SetX at 30% of tensile strength is about 2.8 or 2.9% elongation.

http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_SSX.pdf

Samson LS is 3.3%, and XLS is 2.9%

http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files...tion_Guide.pdf

And since the difference between LS and XLS is only 0.4%, I went with the less costly line.

John

[GMac]

I think the differences you are seeing is just in the way they have been tested and reported. And ropes don't really start to stretch a lot until they get the big loads applies. I think if they published elongation numbers at over 50% of load you'll see quite a difference between them.

In theory the Sta-Set should be lower elongation as it's a parallel cored braid, that being the core isn't braided like the Samson is. Same applies to the strength, parallel cored should be a bit stronger.

The downside of Sta-Set is it is harder to splice properly. Watch for that as you should do it quite differently than the Samson or other braided core ropes.

Ribbony - those are good prices and by the way, NZ only has a cricket team so the Aussies can beat us at something

[forsailbyowner]

For one totally different point of view. I like stretchy halyards and sheets. I use relatively cheap 3 strand nylon for both. Im a cruiser. If something is going to stretch in a puff I rather have the lines stretch than my sails.When really will it make a difference if a halyard has some stretch. If it starts raining, sure I look up and sometimes put in another half turn in.Big deal, I spent around $100 for my last set of four halyards another $36 for the snap shackles and 4 years later theyre still in great shape after many thousands of miles. I did spend the little extra for hard laid nylon but it wasnt much extra.

[GMac]

Interesting comment the Forsail. You are not alone with that but certianly in a minority.

Sails are your power so for them to work best they need to hold the shape and stretchy halyards don't let it do that. They will still work but at a greatly reduced efficiency level. Bit like having a good performance car and then fitting cheap cross-ply tyres on it.

I suppose it's all about how long you're willing to take on passages and so on. If you have all the time in the world and don't like sailing to windward, sail shape isn't so important. Personally I like my boats to be able to sail real well even if I choose not to push them to that level all the time. But it's nice to know that if I had to get somewhere quickly I can get and hold a good sail shape.

One thing about using nylon is that over time your ropes will actually get better for holding shape. It will go hard and nasty but the stretch will slowly disappear.

In the big scheme of things the difference between using cheap halyard ropes and ropes that will work far better is probably less than the flat screen tellies that seem to have become a 'must have' on most boats.

Bit like a bloke we had in last week. had to have the cheapest anchoring option he could get (45fter) as he had to save the money for a laptop and navigation programme. When you're actually at anchor many many times longer than at sea I found that somewhat bizarre.

[RollsRoyce]

I am New to this Forum ... and Therefore say Hello to ALL ...

My Background is Rope Rescue ... SO = if I can Assist with any Specific or General Rope Info it would be my Pleasure ...

As a *Bona-Fide* = My Company makes a Rope Rescue System = that is also used for Mast Ascent & Man-Overboard Rescue ... I shall refrain from mentioning any more in respect for the Non-Commercial Aspects of the Forum ...

Thanks to all ... RR ...

[ribbony]

Good, it seems that "ropes" as a topic is a great one for bringing out diversity. Lots of stretch and some static

Seen that the drums of DB Poly are so inexpensive at the moment we might lace the whole system up with the stuff until we sort out other potential gremlins, like sails (never seen them up - could be old bags), then we will know more about where to place the spectra/vectran, etc. Any remaining after the swap can be put to use for something. For the next 8 weeks we are not likely to go beyond Sydney harbour. The main aim is to get up there for the New Years Eve fireworks at the Harbour Bridge.

One nice thing, it is not hard to swap a rope over if one changes ones mind. But all those welded on bits were very commiting, as well as all that expensive deck gear !

[forsailbyowner]

[quote=GMac;230365]Interesting comment the Forsail. You are not alone with that but certianly in a minority.

Sails are your power so for them to work best they need to hold the shape and stretchy halyards don't let it do that. They will still work but at a greatly reduced efficiency level. Bit like having a good performance car and then fitting cheap cross-ply tyres on it.

I suppose it's all about how long you're willing to take on passages and so on. If you have all the time in the world and don't like sailing to windward, sail shape isn't so important. Personally I like my boats to be able to sail real well even if I choose not to push them to that level all the time. But it's nice to know that if I had to get somewhere quickly I can get and hold a good sail shape.


Are you insinuating I dont keep my sails properly trimmed? Some other boats with a much faster design That Ive sailed with would beg to differ. They commented on what a fast boat my heavily laden Morgan outislander is. In light and moderate winds, a little preload on the halyards keep a nice tight leech for sailing upwind without overloading it like many are prone to do with nonstretch lines. Downwind a slightly slack leech is desirable. a better anology than laptop and ground tackle is the person who opts for using West System epoxy for repairing a fiberglass hull for $90 a gallon instead of premium polyester resin for $20 a gallon. The poly resin makes a perfectly sound repair but hes been sold the epoxy by misleading advertising. Ive had wire halyards and polyester and find its throwing money in the wind compared to ard laid nylon.

[Jmolan]

I had a lot of 3/16" or maybe 1/4" (5mm/6mm) Dyneema around so I used it for halyards. I took some larger double braid and took out the core and slipped the Dyneema up inside for abut ten feet and just black taped the entry and top of the the bury some. I made the cover braid long enough to tail the halyard and have it start at the Dynex just as the sail is part way up. Just like a wire/rope halyard, except the wire is Dynex.

. The only problem I have encounterd so far was we had a 16' runabout upside down along side of us. All full of water, 50HP outboard the whole shebang.....I rigged a bridal to roll it back over, and I used the the shoelace size halyard to hoist on it. The owner of the skiff was screaming it would would break.....and I was thinking, so what if it does, I want to try this stuff out. hahahah....... Well I got the skiff half way around, (this is on a 22' wide trimaran, so lots of stability, in fact we barley heeled at all) and the tail let go. (the entire bay of water front homes is watching of course...great entertainment..... Nothing harmed, but I knew I was pushing it as the halyard had to go so much farther than normal to reach the water. So I was using only tail on the winch, not even tail with the Dynex inside. normally the tail is at my feet before I really get a load at all on the Dynex.
The only other bother is is is really small and you need to pay attention to the wraps as they come on the drum, easy to override it being so small. I wonder if an old rope to wire drum would be better? Probably a million of those around.
I just cannot see using 9mm or 11mm stuff full length just because it easy on your hands. I mean I understand why, But he stuff is WAY to strong at those sizes, I know 9mm Dux is 26,000 Lbs......pretty oversized and expensive way to pull a sail up....:-) I will try to find a read from Brion Toss on the new questions the sythetic lines are giving us. Things like, well this 5mm line may be plenty for a mainsheet (strength wise) but what happens when you jibe and the thing melts from running thru the blocks too fast.
I would like to see a good splice to get my rope buried and secure.

This was written in 2004
Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter

[Weyalan]

Originally Posted by cal40john

I think the Pardeys recommend Sta-Set X for the same reasons you give, but when I looked up the stretch given by the manufacturers of New England and Samson, I don't see the difference, unless there is something much better about Samson double braid over other brands of double braid, which I didn't research.

Sta-SetX at 30% of tensile strength is about 2.8 or 2.9% elongation.

http://www.neropes.com/Datasheets/MAR_SSX.pdf

Samson LS is 3.3%, and XLS is 2.9%

http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files...tion_Guide.pdf

And since the difference between LS and XLS is only 0.4%, I went with the less costly line.

John

I must confess that I do not have experience with Sta-set for halyards (blush).

I use Vectran (main), Spectra (genoa & Jib) and double-braid (spinnaker).

I made reference to Sta-set because it is recommended not only by the Pardeys, but also by Brion Toss; who is, apparently, considered something of an authority in the matter.

I have Brion Toss' "Riggers Apprentice" which talks at some length about the relative merits of the different rope types, and also include detailed instructions on how to splice each...