Do all toilets require holding tanks.

[Cadence]

I was thinking somewhat the same thing. If someone claims they never urinated through their bathing suit, I think you found a liar.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I was thinking somewhat the same thing. If someone claims they never urinated through their bathing suit, I think you found a liar.

never in a pool or hot tub .
Now in open ocean well

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Mike, so that explains why there are designated peeing and non-peeing sections at the public swimming pools and hot tubs, similar to what used to be designated smoking and non-smoking sections aboard airplanes and at many restaurants.

Yup. That would be the warm section of the pool vs the cold

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

We are buying a beautiful HR in the Caribbean. One of two heads have it's holding tank removed to make space for AC. This seem to be a common solution in Caribbean. The law
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/159.7
seem to me quite ambiguous. I am not sure if I would be legal in US waters if I would simply wire the offending toilet outlet in closed position when entering coastal waters and use only the other one.

First, congratulations on your pending purchase, hope you will enjoy many fine days on such.

So the previous owners opted to install an air conditioner in lieu of having a second holding tank and thus retasked the space where a holding tank was originally housed. Well that is a practical enhancement in the warm climate of the Caribbean.

Therefore you apparently have a second toilet which purpose could also be retasked to be multi-purposed like the redneck toilet pictured below. No ambiguity as to the need for seacocks for compliance with this set up, just let the melt water from the ice tank discharge directly to the sea. A propane burner in lieu of charcoal would seem a better cooking arrangement. I would recommend that you relocate the toilet up to your cockpit or deck so as to allow the exhaust and heat of combustion to discharge into the ambient environment and so as to not discharge exhaust into the original head space. Besides burning charcoal or propane inside a hull clearly defeats the benefit of your AC unit [and would be rather dangerous].

Thence the second original head space could be converted to become a very useful storage locker / wet locker, or spacious pantry, [or a now odor free, private reading room]. And one less head to clean!!!!

One has to ask, why keep two spaces for use as a head on a boat? If the single head is occupied and a person has a truly urgent call of nature they can always just jump overboard or let rip off the swim platform, and do their business, like other water mammals do in the water. There being recent threads discussing the pros and cons of a single or multiple heads aboard vessels.

However, there being a potential issue with this retasking /multitasking setup in that guests that drink too much of the chilled beer derived from the holding tank and become inebriated, might try to pee in the bowl / BBQ, in which case the issue of discharge into the waterway becomes a matter of law, which USA pertinent laws are discussed in detail within this thread.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Nonsense. You should check to see if you have a ruptured hose, there shouldn’t be any human waste in your bilge.

Hey Kenomac, you were absolutely correct in your reply.

I looked up the definition of the word bilge and it has two meanings, one of which is yours. "Nonsense."

Who knew? I'm still learning something new everyday.

Bilge.

noun
1.
the area on the outer surface of a ship's hull where the bottom curves to meet the vertical sides.
2.
informal
nonsense; rubbish.
"romantic bilge dreamed up by politicians and journalists"

I always thought the bilge was the space in the inner surface of a ship's hull at the bottom of the hull. The definition copied above is outside the ship [not inside the ship] and being outside would be in contact with the water that the ship displaces, i.e., the area into which a discharge flows.

So what does one call the area of the space in the inner surface of a ship's hull at the bottom of the hull?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Hey Kenomac, you were absolutely correct in your reply.

I looked up the definition of the word bilge and it has two meanings, one of which is yours. "Nonsense."

Who knew? I'm still learning something new everyday.

Bilge.

noun
1.
the area on the outer surface of a ship's hull where the bottom curves to meet the vertical sides.
2.
informal
nonsense; rubbish.
"romantic bilge dreamed up by politicians and journalists"

I always thought the bilge was the space in the inner surface of a ship's hull at the bottom of the hull. The definition copied above is outside the ship [not inside the ship] and being outside would be in contact with the water that the ship displaces, i.e., the area into which a discharge flows.

So what does one call the area of the space in the inner surface of a ship's hull at the bottom of the hull?

the bilge is also the inner space of a hull below the waterline where the frames meet the keel and are joined by a floor.

noun
noun: bilge; plural noun: bilges
1.
the area on the outer surface of a ship's hull where the bottom curves to meet the vertical sides.
Also
the lowest internal portion of the hull.
dirty water that collects inside the bilges.
noun: bilge water; plural noun: bilge waters; noun: bilgewater

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by newhaul

the bilge is also the inner space of a hull below the waterline where the frames meet the keel and are joined by a floor.

noun
noun: bilge; plural noun: bilges
1.
the area on the outer surface of a ship's hull where the bottom curves to meet the vertical sides.
Also
the lowest internal portion of the hull.
dirty water that collects inside the bilges.
noun: bilge water; plural noun: bilge waters; noun: bilgewater

Well those two distinct definitions of bilge could lead to confusion fast. So the "bilge" could be outside or inside the ship. One could easily go looking in the wrong place. Albeit, the lowest internal portion of the hull is what I had imagined and believed the bilge to be.

I'm spotting the definition of the plural of bilge:

Bilges. noun (in a hull with a double bottom) an enclosed area between frames at each side of the floors, where seepage collects. This plural definition sounds rather similar to your description above but is not necessarily along the keel line.

But I'm not seeing any other definition of bilge other than the area of transition from the vertical sides to the bottom of the hull, except perhaps the term "bilge well".

A bilge well is the place where seepage drains to be pumped away; i.e., that typically stinky, yucky place(s) I learned to hate to be instructed [read, told] to clean and drain when I was a Sea Scout which was full of bilge water which had much more than just water in it and which in my experience often was the lowest and grubbiest portion inside of the hull, and being especially awkwardly located below a fixed floor if there is in fact a floor toward the bottom of the hull. It was also the place the "skipper" wanted to be spotlessly clean when he inspected the ship.

Also, by past personal experience the bilge being that place where the important lost item was likely to be found submerged at some much later date and which item was then anything other than in "well" condition.

Well I suppose one could have barnacles to scrap off on both the inside and the outside of the bilge of the hull.

Oh, bilge well!

[zboss]

You said “one of two”. The law doesn’t say all heads have to have it, just “An”...but you do need to secure both of the seacocks.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by cal40john

It does not say all.
(1) An operable Type II or III device that has a label

There must be at least one. The others you can padlock the door as you have posted earlier.

I see the logic in your assertion. You see the pronoun "it" as referring to "vessel", but I submit that it refers to "installed toilet". It is grammatically clumsy, but I suggest that the omission within the reg's of any reference to toilets sans MSD, means that such a device is not allowed. They are very specific about noting the need to lock out the MSDs in specific situations; don't you think they would mention a toilet that discharges waste directly must be locked out within 12 miles seaward of the coast? A pretty large omission. Unless you can provide a link to a reg that covers this?

No person may operate any vessel equipped with installed toilet facilities unless it is equipped with:
(1) An operable Type II or III device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12 or § 159.12a; or
(2) An operable Type I device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12, if the vessel is 19.7 meters (65 feet) or less in length.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Peggie,

You appear to be referencing a section that applies to Subchapter C of Chapter 1 of Title 46. The waste regulations are in Title 33, so not related in the least. In 33 CFR 159.3, the MSD regs, it gives you the definition of vessel, to which the rules apply:



Again with reference to that reg, it says that all toilets fitted on board are to have a functioning MSD, with them having their overboard discharges locked off when in particular waters. There appears to be no allowance for a direct-discharge toilet.

actually you posted a link in this post it just doesn't show so I will help remind you .
Quote:
Vessel includes every description of watercraft or other artificial contrivance used, or capable of being used, as a means of transportation on the waters of the United States.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by newhaul

actually you posted a link in this post it just doesn't show so I will help remind you .
Quote:
Vessel includes every description of watercraft or other artificial contrivance used, or capable of being used, as a means of transportation on the waters of the United States.

That would be a "quote", not a "link". Thanks for playing.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

That would be a "quote", not a "link". Thanks for playing.

there is a link embedded in the original quote you posted but now for future reference please post links to the material you wish to quote.
Thanks for all of the links in your latest post.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think I have you figured out. All that time in the Med has exposed you to the British cutting (ie. sarcastic) wit, and you are trying to emulate it. Well good for you for; everyone should have aspirations.
Unfortunately old chap, another swing and a miss. If I can offer some pointers, you should first of all, try to be witty. Failing that, you could try to be right, at least occasionally. Now I sympathize with you, it being so onerous to go back through a long thread; in this case, 3 pages worth, but it would have been easy for you to see that I have not posted a link in this thread at all, before you opened your proverbial gob and inserted your size 6 Birkenstock.

As I've already pointed out, the regs being discussed very specifically talk about locking out a MSD, but do not discuss locking out a direct-discharge toilet. If you can point to a reg. that says that, it would be most helpful.

I’m not going to read it to you.... read it yourself. Here’s the link you keep referring to: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/159.7

[Lodesman]

To the OP, if you're still with us. My take is that if you have the money to purchase such a nice boat, you have the money to do the right thing. Whether it's legal or not, I think we as sailors have a moral imperative to follow best practices, set a good example and (most importantly) not crap where we swim or in our hosts' backyards. The regulations in all countries are bound to get more stringent, not more relaxed. The US, remarkably is far ahead of other nations regarding the protection of its waters. Most LEOs wouldn't know an MSD from a Happy Meal box, and are just looking for a lock on a Y-valve. Do you want to run the risk of meeting the one LEO that knows the difference and can levy a whopping fine?
Frankly, if you're not planning on using the toilet except when upon the high seas, then you might consider removing and repurposing the space. A stand-alone shower might be an option, or most admirals like a laundry space.

Here's some advice from West Marine: https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvis...itation-System

and best practices in the UK (section 7.2): https://assets.publishing.service.go...re-vessels.pdf

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by newhaul

a type one MSD does not treat the raw sewage.
a standard marine toilet macerates the solids effluent by its very operation. Therefore it is considered a type 1 MSD
Aside from the fact the EPA has little to do with it its all about the USCG and MAROPL.

Where do you get your information? Can you cite a reputable source?

Here is what the USCG says:

Approved MSDs: There are three different types of MSDs that can be certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements in 33 CFR Part 159, each having its own design, certification, and discharge criteria. For more information see 33 CFR 159.53.

• Type I is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 1,000 per 100 milliliters and no visible floating solids. This type of device is typically a physical/chemical based system that relies on maceration and chlorination. Type I MSDs are issued a Certificate of Approval.
• Type II is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters and suspended solids not greater than 150 milligrams per liter. This type of device is typically a biological or aerobic digestion based system.
• Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...gineering/msd/