Combine black and grey water?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

References for Australian regulations:



GBRMPA - Recreational vessel sewage requirements

.

Thanks for the link, but that is just for one very specific bit of Australia, albeit one that I plan to visit at some stage.

A bit of reading is telling me nobody seems to care much about grey water discharge at a regulatory level. (Except of course, particular marinas and semi enclosed waterways).

I certainly care at a personal level.

I think, given the sound advice from fellow CF members, I will try to find some space for a separate grey water tank, and design it in such a way that it is relatively easy to keep clean.

[seandepagnier]

I had no idea it was a consideration or illegal to wash dishes or take shower, but I do not use detergents and only biodegradable soap. Is it illegal?? Coast guard told me only of sewage, oil and garbage rules. They said it was fine to dump compost waste anywhere.

I dump sewage bucket 3 miles offshore if I don't burn it as fuel for cooking because sometimes I don't get enough sun to dry it.

Many if not the majority of cruisers dump their sewage straight out into harbor; I see it all the time, and although I don't do this, I don't think it is much of a concern in most cases because of low concentration.

A bigger concern is spilling oil and fuel which I see in almost every harbor, and also why are catalytic converters not required?? I find marine diesel exhaust is very strong. I would worry about this before greywater.

[Montanan]

Link to regulations for South Australia.

http://file:///C:/Users/DAN/Download...enStephens.pdf

Grey water is waste water that has been
used for washing, laundering, bathing or
showering. The Code of Practice states
that grey water is less of a risk to human
health than black water. The rules for grey
water are:
Marine waters vessels operators must:
Only discharge untreated grey water provided that:
 The vessel is more than one nautical mile from the nearest land or people in the water
 The vessel is three nautical miles from the nearest aquaculture lease, and
 There are no visible solids.

The rules for the Murray River and Inland
Waters are more stringent. You simply
cannot discharge any waste water. Black
and grey water must be retained in holding
tanks on board and discharged at a land
based collection site. This requirement for
grey water applies to all new and
commercial boats and will come into force
for all other boats on 1 January 2011.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I had no idea it was a consideration or illegal to wash dishes or take shower, but I do not use detergents and only biodegradable soap. Is it illegal?? Coast guard told me only of sewage, oil and garbage rules. They said it was fine to dump compost waste anywhere.

I dump sewage bucket 3 miles offshore if I don't burn it as fuel for cooking because sometimes I don't get enough sun to dry it.

Many if not the majority of cruisers dump their sewage straight out into harbor; I see it all the time, and although I don't do this, I don't think it is much of a concern in most cases because of low concentration.

A bigger concern is spilling oil and fuel which I see in almost every harbor, and also why are catalytic converters not required?? I find marine diesel exhaust is very strong. I would worry about this before greywater.

US EPA regulations, FAQs:

Can I discharge graywater from my vessel?

Graywater is regulated differently depending on the type of vessel and whether it is mixed with sewage effluent. Commercial and military vessels have graywater requirements under the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination Systems (NPDES) permitting regime and the Uniform National Discharge Standards, respectively. For recreational vessels, there are currently no federal rules in place regulating graywater except in the Great Lakes, where graywater discharges must meet all applicable sewage effluent requirements.

For all vessels, when graywater and sewage are mixed, the resulting discharge must meet sewage effluent requirements.

[RaymondR]

The last time I read the sewage discharge regulations in Queensland it appeared that they classified different classes of sewage upon the number of viable fecal coliforms per volume of water. This still being the case you would be OK dumping the grey water so long as it was not mixed with sewage.

[GILow]

Yes it does vary from state to state.

Montanan gave me the lead I needed to find the South Australian regs (Thank you Montanan) and they rang a bell when I read them. I think I must have read them semi recently when helping friends with their black-water setup. I just didn't pay enough attention to the grey-water rules.

I don't actually expect to spend any time in South Australian waters after I leave later this year, so in some ways the info is bit late for me, but I am happy to see I have been compliant, even though I didn't know I was being so.

I think, in the interests of future-proofing, I will go ahead and figure out a grey water storage system. It will be worth the effort.

But I will NOT combine it with the black water system, that does seem to be a recipe for disaster from the good advice given so far. A pity, it would have made things so much easier.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

... A bigger concern [but not the only] is spilling oil and fuel which I see in almost every harbor, and also why are catalytic converters not required?? I find marine diesel exhaust is very strong. I would worry about this before greywater.

Indeed, but not instead of (to the exclusion of) concern about boater's grey/black discharge.


Which of these diseases should we not be concerned about?

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I had no idea it was a consideration or illegal to wash dishes or take shower, but I do not use detergents and only biodegradable soap. Is it illegal??
No it's not illegal to wash dishes or take a shower, but discharging the waste stream thereof maybe, depends on location. Actually society may take issue if you don't shower or wash your dishes.
It would be illegal to wash dishes near a stream in Montana.

Coast guard told me only of sewage, oil and garbage rules. They said it was fine to dump compost waste anywhere.

I dump sewage bucket 3 miles offshore if I don't burn it as fuel for cooking because sometimes I don't get enough sun to dry it.

"Can I use a composting toilet onboard my vessel?

Composting toilets may be considered a Type III marine sanitation device by the U.S. Coast Guard. Type III devices that store sewage and flushwater at ambient air pressure and temperature are not subject to formal certification by the U.S. Coast Guard, as long as the device complies with the following requirement: "Be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage (Type III)." Please note that most composting toilets have not been examined by the U.S. Coast Guard. Instead, in most cases, the device manufacturer attests that the device meets the aforementioned requirements.

The contents of both the liquid waste container and the compost chamber must be properly disposed of such that no overboard discharge occurs.

See 33 CFR 159.12(a) and 33 CFR 159.53(c) for the relevant statutory language." Link to EPA website: http://https://www.epa.gov/vessels-m...ions#graywater

Many if not the majority of cruisers dump their sewage straight out into harbor; I see it all the time,
The reason why boaters are regulated and become banned from anchoring out. Not unlike the enforcement of no camping regulations up here in Montana, so as to mitigate damage to locations from repeated mistreatment.

and although I don't do this, Good on you. I don't think it is much of a concern in most cases because of low concentration. Low concentration, i.e., implies mixing zone and non-cumulative loading. By way of example, my residences are in small towns across the great divide, one each near the headwaters of the Missouri River and the Columbia, the effluent of the towns goes into the rivers, small amount relative to the flow of the river but then so does each town downstream and if the towns downstream each add their loading the biological and sanitary issues build up to be a major factor. St. Louis and Portlandia eventually receive the burden of the upstream loads. Hence the requirement for each person to pay for the capital outlays and cost of operation of their respective loading of waste stream. Both towns have a population of about 4,000 persons and each has recently installed enhanced pollution control treatment plants for the sewage waters to the tune of $25 million each, hence each house pays about $60 - $75 per month / $720 - $900 per year just to pay down the bonds for the cost of the infrastructure and will do so for 20+ years.


A bigger concern is spilling oil and fuel which I see in almost every harbor, and also why are catalytic converters not required?? I find marine diesel exhaust is very strong. I would worry about this before greywater. Relativity of adversity, as per GordMay's line of thinking, do you wish to breath, drink or bath in your wastes, or just let others intake your waste, including not just other persons but the rest of Nature.

Please reference comments listed above in blue.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GILow

Yes it does vary from state to state.

Montanan gave me the lead I needed to find the South Australian regs (Thank you Montanan) and they rang a bell when I read them. I think I must have read them semi recently when helping friends with their black-water setup. I just didn't pay enough attention to the grey-water rules.

I don't actually expect to spend any time in South Australian waters after I leave later this year, so in some ways the info is bit late for me, but I am happy to see I have been compliant, even though I didn't know I was being so.

I think, in the interests of future-proofing, I will go ahead and figure out a grey water storage system. It will be worth the effort.

But I will NOT combine it with the black water system, that does seem to be a recipe for disaster from the good advice given so far. A pity, it would have made things so much easier.

I wasn't sure which of the numerous jurisdictions waters were applicable for you. Local rules, rule. But hey, I can usually locate Australia on a proper map. Reference map below. Being from Montaña, people often ask me after I tell them from where I am, "That's in Canada, right?" to which I sometimes reply: "No, you got that upside down and backwards, Canada is in Montaña"; which tends to leave a native Floridian truly puzzled. Then I explain that is the reason why Montaña hasn't built a wall along our southern border along the 49th parallel.

Some questions:

Is it true that the water goes down your sink drain and toilet in the reverse direction of the northern hemisphere? If so, how do you plumb for that?

Does that force phenomena, also explain why y'all drive on the non-right side of the road?
Which begs the follow on question: Do you know the fundamental difference between right, and wrong?

Do you navigate so as to pass boats in a manner to have the sides - port to port, or the opposite arrangement? If port side to port side, doesn't that tend to confuse the boaties when they convert from steering from driving on pavement to driving on waterways and then back to driving on land? It seems the natural learned instinct from walking in crowds and driving vehicles would be for you to stay to one's left [a.k.a., non-right side].

Do you spell the adjective for describing the waste water, grey or gray? Which of the fifty shades thereof is your favorite?
Are there different regulations for Grey water and for Gray water? Are you sure about the answer to the last question? There always are those grey / gray areas of the law.


G'Day Mate.

[GordMay]

Notice "The United States of Canada".

[hellosailor]

And then there's always the option, if you have space and the need is only temporary, to install a blivet, i.e. a Nauta bladder, and use that for gray water storage. If your needs are really small, the 5-gallon plastic blivets that restaurants and diners get their milk in, can be used. They normally throw those out, but for a couple of bucks or a dinner guest they'll often give them away.

[GILow]

Ah, deep philosophical questions, but I can help...

Originally Posted by Montanan

Some questions:

Is it true that the water goes down your sink drain and toilet in the reverse direction of the northern hemisphere? If so, how do you plumb for that?

Yes, it is true. We simply put the sink/toilet/shower at the other end of the pipe. Migrant plumbers from the other hemisphere usually figure it out pretty quickly.

Does that force phenomena, also explain why y'all drive on the non-right side of the road?

The reason we drive on the wrong side of the road is because we are the result of British colonisation. The reason THEY drive on the wrong side of the road is a mystery to me, and I wish it to remain that way. I am sure that, should I look, I will find it is because some inbred Lord Stuffbucket made it that way so that he could come and go more easily to one of his country retreats.

Which begs the follow on question: Do you know the fundamental difference between right, and wrong?

A quick analysis of our political and social history will show that we clearly do not have a clue.

Do you navigate so as to pass boats in a manner to have the sides - port to port, or the opposite arrangement? If port side to port side, doesn't that tend to confuse the boaties when they convert from steering from driving on pavement to driving on waterways and then back to driving on land? It seems the natural learned instinct from walking in crowds and driving vehicles would be for you to stay to one's left [a.k.a., non-right side].

Yes, it DOES lead to incredible confusion. Thankfully, some kind of Darwinian style evolution is at play and means that mostly the problem is confined to runabouts of less than 25 feet, none of which bother me and barely leave a mark on my bow as they go under. By the time the locals have evolved to more than 25 feet they have mostly mastered the whole left/right issue, and and are now mostly hampered by figuring out just how inebriated is too inebriated to operate a boat. That one presents some challenges for them.


Do you spell the adjective for describing the waste water, grey or gray? Which of the fifty shades thereof is your favorite?
Are there different regulations for Grey water and for Gray water? Are you sure about the answer to the last question? There always are those grey / gray areas of the law.


Ah, well, being a mostly Black and White kind of guy, I am rarely troubled by that particular conundrum. (Except, of course, in the current thread, where I was considering being a Black and Grey kind of guy, but never, I should be clear, a Black and Gray kind of guy. That would just be silly.)

[RaymondR]

The driving side thing goes back to wagon days when the driver sat on the right hand side so that his strong right leg could be used for the inefficient brakes they had. When the U.S. started making autos of various types they put the steering wheels on the left hand side to make it harder for the wagon and stage coach drivers to spit chewing tobacco on the auto drivers.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

The driving side thing goes back to wagon days when the driver sat on the right hand side so that his strong right leg could be used for the inefficient brakes they had. When the U.S. started making autos of various types they put the steering wheels on the left hand side to make it harder for the wagon and stage coach drivers to spit chewing tobacco on the auto drivers.

I am happier with this explanation than my English Blue-blood theory.

However, it does still mean that we in Australia pay much more for cars than most countries and I have to buff out runabout marks from the bow every six months.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GILow

I am happier with this explanation than my English Blue-blood theory.

However, it does still mean that we in Australia pay much more for cars than most countries and I have to buff out runabout marks from the bow every six months.

Well when I visit the UK on business, I tend to occasionally have difficulties with the "proper" side of travel. Once went around a small roundabout the incorrect direction, working against traffic, scared the Dickens out of my British clients and thence on they love to tell the story of my doing such to others when I'm back in London. They say they don't trust my driving, albeit I explain to them that it takes great skill to navigate against oncoming traffic around a busy roundabout in London. Still hoping to go right side around [counterclockwise] at the Trafalgar junction of the A4, Strand, Whitehall and the The Mall. Yelling, "Make a hole, Yank coming through!" Might have roundabout marks instead of runabout marks to buff out, but then that is why one purchases collision damage waiver at the car hire.

Just be sure to not mix up your plumbing as to the tanks for grey/gray water and your potable water, might make the taste of your drinking water a bit off.