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Old 20-10-2017, 15:19   #1
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Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

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ID:	158083Preventing Cone Clutch "slipping".
Some pics showing the SD40 and SD50 Upgrade, part of which incorporates new larger diameter Thrust Bearings and associated components, replacing the original Yanmar Copper thrust washers.
Also showing a previously smooth shiney "slipping" Cone Cup surface in the front, compared to a dull "lapped" Cone Cup surface behind it.

For info or assistance, e mail; saildrives@yahoo.com
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Old 21-10-2017, 00:02   #2
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Can you elaborate on this post I've had my 50's apart and re-lapped both. The washer spacers I recall were hundredths thin, a combination of these was required to obtain an exact tolerance
I don't recognize the bearing in the first picture. I'm certainly interested in a permanent fix as I'm thinking another 300 hours I'll be back in mine again.
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Old 22-10-2017, 04:39   #3
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

We have developed an Upgrade Kit for the SD40 SD50 Cone Clutch assy.
The Thrust Bearing and Collar assembly shown in the pic is part of a number of new improved components in the the Upgrade.
The Shims you are referring to, do not serve the same purpose as the Thrust Bearings. The Shims are all about Gear Mesh and Backlash adjustment.
Thrust Bearings are fitted in place of the original Copper washers below the Top Nut and Lower Collar on the upper Vertical Shaft, and other than acting to absorb the load induced by the spiral cut splines, control the free play of the Vertical Shaft.
The Upgrade also addresses the Selector adjustment and simplifies the adjustment Prucedure, which is important, but normally ignored!

Feel free to contact me on; saildrives@yahoo.com for more info.
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Old 03-04-2018, 20:44   #4
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Interesting.

But how does this Upgrade Kit reduce glazing of the cone surfaces?
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Old 04-04-2018, 16:27   #5
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisseH View Post
Interesting.

But how does this Upgrade Kit reduce glazing of the cone surfaces?
Chris, you may want to search around CF on the subject. There are a few threads with lots of information about these drives. Use the google custom search rather than the generic search function.
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Old 04-04-2018, 16:40   #6
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisseH View Post
Interesting.

But how does this Upgrade Kit reduce glazing of the cone surfaces?
"Thrust Bearings are fitted in place of the original Copper washers below the Top Nut and Lower Collar on the upper Vertical Shaft, and other than acting to absorb the load induced by the spiral cut splines, control the free play of the Vertical Shaft."

I will be doing upgrade shortly on the other saildrive. I have only managed to roughen the surface on one saildrive and it worked ! Done complete upgrade as well but stepped back as did not like tolerance I come up with so will attempt again next cycle.

Although instructions are not that easy to read, upgrade is easy to do. Pics would not hurt.
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Old 04-04-2018, 16:52   #7
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

I bought a pair of kits for my boat. Haven't had a chance to install them yet. They aren't cheap, but still way cheaper than the frustration and aggravation of losing a sail drive a hundred miles from the dock.

Chrisseh, it looks to me like the main purpose in the kit is to maintain the clearance spec to a very exact standard. As the copper washers wear, the clearance increases, and the ability of the cone clutch to hold tight in the cup is reduced. A small amount of extra slippage on engagement results in glazed cups, until eventually it won't drive the shaft.

The bearings won't wear away like the copper washer, and should maintain the engagement clearance properly.
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Old 04-04-2018, 17:33   #8
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

We ate up our first SD 50 Yanmar saildrive in about 500 engine hours and 2 years on our Sabre 386.
When I disassembled the original (no warranty, thank you very much...) I saw the cone clutch and realized that Yanmar had made the same mistake that automobile manufacturers made in the 1980’s...
They specified the wrong oil.
Once I switched to a non GL-5 rated oil, our replacement SD 50 saildrive never had an issue. The first cone was replaced at 600 hours with no visible wear and the next cone was replaced at some 800 hours. It looked new.
Google GL-5 and bronze to see why the issue exists. Yanmar suggests a GL-5 synthetic Mercury lube. It is a disaster!
Find a GL-4 lube and you will have no issues.
By the way, the “gotcha” is that GL-5 gear oil meets or exceeds the requirements of a GL-4 lube...for gears! Not for friction devices like cone clutches or synchronizers. If there is a bronze cone clutch (SD-50) GL-5 rated oil is poisonous.
The SD-50 T is another story...
That unit uses a cone clutch with a sintered bronze wear surface. It can live with a GL-5 oil. I’d still use the low sulphur GL-4 if it were mine though. There are no gear failure issues that I am aware of to drive the need of a GL-5.
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Old 04-04-2018, 17:51   #9
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Interesting. What applications would use the SD-50 T instead of the regular SD-50?
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Old 04-04-2018, 17:57   #10
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

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Interesting. What applications would use the SD-50 T instead of the regular SD-50?
All I remember is that engines larger than our 40 HP 3 cylinder used the SD-50T.
Not sure how large they went with the saildrive.
There is also a maintenance interval for the cone clutch. I believe it is 500 or 600 hours. Our first clutch that used the GL-5 recommended oil was smoked at 500 hours. I changed the replacement at longer and longer intervals with no issues.
The oil is everything...
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:47   #11
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I have read through the other threads on this topic.

So the theory here is that the gradually increasing distance between the two female cones makes engagement of the clutch cone more difficult resulting in slippage and glazing?

I lapped a year ago for the first time the cone surfaces in my SD50. At the time I had 1200 hours on the engine, of which some 200 were used for battery charging and heating water. I did notice some minor wear on the Copper washers, but the change in thickness was very small. Ok, I used a caliper for the measurement, but the difference in thickness between the base of the washer and the worn area could not have been more than 1/10 of a millimeter. So the question is - Is the distance between the two female cones really that critical or is the slipping or glazing caused by the increased play in the system?

By-the-way, what is the material of Volvo's clutch cone? The same as in SD50?
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:43   #12
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

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Originally Posted by ChrisseH View Post
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I have read through the other threads on this topic.

So the theory here is that the gradually increasing distance between the two female cones makes engagement of the clutch cone more difficult resulting in slippage and glazing?

I lapped a year ago for the first time the cone surfaces in my SD50. At the time I had 1200 hours on the engine, of which some 200 were used for battery charging and heating water. I did notice some minor wear on the Copper washers, but the change in thickness was very small. Ok, I used a caliper for the measurement, but the difference in thickness between the base of the washer and the worn area could not have been more than 1/10 of a millimeter. So the question is - Is the distance between the two female cones really that critical or is the slipping or glazing caused by the increased play in the system?

By-the-way, what is the material of Volvo's clutch cone? The same as in SD50?
The cone itself is bronze and it is considered a “consumable” part. The mating surfaces or the female parts as you refer to them are steel and are designed to last the life of the drive. As the bronze cone wears in diameter, it looses contact area that can be applied to the steel and it begins slipping.

The problem with GL-5 oils is that they are designed to help prevent wear in hypoid gear sets. Hypoid gears have long curved teeth that slide as they mesh, thus the oil must be slippery to help them survive. To achieve this, sulfur is added to the oils additive package. It is the sulfur that causes the problem with the cone clutch and leads to its early demise. The same problem exists with synchronizers in manual transmissions. If a GL-5 gear oil is used in a transmission that uses non sintered synchro rings (most European and Asian designs) the result is notchy shifting at first and ultimately the failure of the synchro.

When we purchased our Sabre in 2005, I began a regimen of service that included regular gear lube replacement with the Yanmar recommended Mercury Marine Quicksilver HP gear lube. As I mentioned in an earlier post, our first drive failed in early 2008. As it was the beginning of the season and time was short, we elected to simply replace the unit in order to get back in the water. After I made the swap, I disassembled the failed unit and immediately saw what had happened. Like the synchronizers I had once replaced in many transmissions that used the wrong oil, the wear in our failed drive looked extreme.

As I owned a repair shop that stocked a quality GL-4 gear oil of the correct viscosity for use in cars we serviced, I simply began using that oil in the new drive. Problem solved! We never had an issue with the cone again. I even began stretching the replacement interval as when I removed the cone it was essentially impossible to discern wear.

We changed nothing else about our use of the boat, it was the oil that made the difference.

By the way, lapping a cone is at best a temporary fix. They do wear and once the material is gone, it will slip.

I have never disassembled a Volvo cone clutch type saildrive but I do know that Volvo specifically recommends ATF or motor oil for their saildrive, that is a sure sign of a bronze cone...
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:08   #13
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

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Originally Posted by Bruce Beard View Post
The cone itself is bronze and it is considered a “consumable” part. The mating surfaces or the female parts as you refer to them are steel and are designed to last the life of the drive. As the bronze cone wears in diameter, it looses contact area that can be applied to the steel and it begins slipping.

The problem with GL-5 oils is that they are designed to help prevent wear in hypoid gear sets. Hypoid gears have long curved teeth that slide as they mesh, thus the oil must be slippery to help them survive. To achieve this, sulfur is added to the oils additive package. It is the sulfur that causes the problem with the cone clutch and leads to its early demise. The same problem exists with synchronizers in manual transmissions. If a GL-5 gear oil is used in a transmission that uses non sintered synchro rings (most European and Asian designs) the result is notchy shifting at first and ultimately the failure of the synchro.

When we purchased our Sabre in 2005, I began a regimen of service that included regular gear lube replacement with the Yanmar recommended Mercury Marine Quicksilver HP gear lube. As I mentioned in an earlier post, our first drive failed in early 2008. As it was the beginning of the season and time was short, we elected to simply replace the unit in order to get back in the water. After I made the swap, I disassembled the failed unit and immediately saw what had happened. Like the synchronizers I had once replaced in many transmissions that used the wrong oil, the wear in our failed drive looked extreme.

As I owned a repair shop that stocked a quality GL-4 gear oil of the correct viscosity for use in cars we serviced, I simply began using that oil in the new drive. Problem solved! We never had an issue with the cone again. I even began stretching the replacement interval as when I removed the cone it was essentially impossible to discern wear.

We changed nothing else about our use of the boat, it was the oil that made the difference.

By the way, lapping a cone is at best a temporary fix. They do wear and once the material is gone, it will slip.

I have never disassembled a Volvo cone clutch type saildrive but I do know that Volvo specifically recommends ATF or motor oil for their saildrive, that is a sure sign of a bronze cone...
Bruce
Thanks Bruce,

Your explanation sounds convincing. I am no expert on engines, but the fact that my saildrive with reasonably good Copper washers still started to slip would indicate that something else than the wear on washers is the problem. I would also be surprised if the saildrives that slip after only 200 engine hours have worn Copper washers.

The only thing that puzzles me is how in earth Yanmar would not have come to the same conclusion. Especially as the SD40/50 drives have been on the market for so long.

Christer
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:47   #14
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

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Thanks Bruce,

Your explanation sounds convincing. I am no expert on engines, but the fact that my saildrive with reasonably good Copper washers still started to slip would indicate that something else than the wear on washers is the problem. I would also be surprised if the saildrives that slip after only 200 engine hours have worn Copper washers.

The only thing that puzzles me is how in earth Yanmar would not have come to the same conclusion. Especially as the SD40/50 drives have been on the market for so long.

Christer
The quick answer is revealed when reading specifications for gear lubricants. You will find that any GL-5 lube spec says that it meets or exceeds GL-4 lubrication requirements. That statement is true with regard to lubricating gears. It is problematic with regard to friction devices that have their own specific requirements.
As I said in an earlier post, there were more than a few automobile manufacturers that fell for this in the 1980’s with lots of unnecessary warranty work performed as a result. This was my connection and why I recognized the issue. Aparrently Yanmar never consulted with that industry...
Remember, when you are looking for a suitable gear oil, it should be GL-4 rated without mentioning GL-5.
Bruce
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Old 05-04-2018, 17:10   #15
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Re: Yanmar SD40 & SD50 "slipping" Saildrive Upgrade

Ok this got me thinking. The wrong fluid theory is much more plausible than the assumption I made that it was incorrect tolerances due to copper shim wear.

So would we be better off going with a fluid that was specifically formulated for bronze syncronizers? How about GM Synchromesh fluid? I know it helps in old manual transmissions. Why not here? After all, this thing is simply an inverted syncronizer.
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