Video Link - Still Trying to Diagnose Squeal in Forward

[Northeaster]

Took another video, to show the noise from the cockpit.

Video shows squealing sound in forward, thne I shift into neutral, and rev to 3600, and then finally in reverse, and rev to full again. There is virtually no squeal in neutral or reverse - juts in forward.

YouTube - sailboat engine whine noise

[osirissail]

When you take off the stuffing box, look carefully at the prop shaft when it enters and exits the stuffing box. Look for worn or "glazed" metal areas on the shaft. Assuming 1/4" wide stuffing material you can see of the shaft is moving excessively forward or aft when the boat is in gear. In forward gear the shaft may move forward enough to encounter a glazed area on the shaft or other irregularity that is causing the squeel. In neutral or reverse the shaft/stuffing box relationship is different and no squeel. Just a thought.

[Northeaster]

osirissail - I will definitely take a look under the stuffing box, once it is out of the water. Will also check the cutlass bearing, to see if there are any points where the shaft may be touching, metal on metal, if the shaft moves a bit (like when the engine torques up in forward).

I am just wondering if there are any parts in the transmission, besides the forward drive gear and drive cone, that only get used when in forward. I don't have my manual on hand now, but would like tt know if there is only one thrust washer, for example, or if there is a separate one for forward and another one for reverse.

Someomne had menayioned the damper plate (and springs) culd cause noise, but I would assume that would affect reverse as well.

[Northeaster]

I see, on the online manual:

http://www.cascadeengine.com/cec2/co...20-A0A1025.pdf

that there are separate roller bearings for the forward and reverse large drive gears. If I uderstand correctly, when the lever is shifted into forward, the lever moves the drive cone into contact with the forward gear, which is always spinning, fomr being geared against the input shaft. The drive cone now "locks" against the forward gear, and turns the output shaft in the proper direction. Same thing in reverse, except that the divr cone "locks" against the reverse gear, and therefore the output shaft spins in the opposite direction.

I am wondering if one of the roller bearings may be making the noise, and if so, owuld it be more likely to be the reverse one as when it is in forward, the forward gear and ouput shaft are both turning together. However, the large reverse gear (not being engaged by the drive cone, but still spinning fast from being geared to the input shaft) would have to run on its roller bearing, which lets the output shaft turn freely (in forward) inside it.

Does this make any sense?

Regardless, I will look for scoringm, etc, on the prop shaft, where it rubs against the stuffing box, and cutlass bearing. However, if I don't find any high wear marks, shoudl I pull the trannie, take it apart, and replace all bearings, while I am in there.
My brother and I had it apart 2 seasons ago, but since the bearings seemed fine, we didn't replace them.

[shakey doug]

Have not read all posts got to get on the job, just watched video sounds like gear noise caused by running gear box in reverse to go ahead ,check that g/box lever moving in same direction as control lever. prop fitted may be wrong handed, i have wasted my time not yours if this has been already covered. good Luck.

[Northeaster]

Shakey Doug - thanks for taking the time to respond. Great educated guess. But, the gearbox lever does shift the correct way, and the output shaft and right handed prop turn clockwise (when viewed from the stern).

What's your next choice of possible culprits?

Do you think the shaft rubbing on the stuffing box or cutlass too much (not aligned correctly) would cause the squeal in fwd but not reverse? Or, what about the needle (roller) bearings in the drive gears? Something else??

[osirissail]

When you used the vinyl hose and tube or the stethescope and touched each part of the engine, transmission and stuffing box when the engine is running and making the squeal - that should have found or eliminated everything inside the boat. The only parts left are the propeller and cutlass bearing. If you did not use the stethescope or vinyl hose and pipe to test each part then you are back to square one.
- - With the boat out of the water, pulling or pushing on the propeller will indicate if any thrust bearings in the trannie are bad. Up/down, left/right movement of the propeller will indicate a worn cutlass bearing. Examination of the removed propeller shaft for glazed or wear rings will show if the problem is in the stuffing box.

[Northeaster]

Osirissail - I have not used the stethcsope yet, as I forgot t opick it up - it is at the shop, an hour drive away. I could have used hose, but didn't have any, and figured I would wait and get the stethocope, rather than buy some hose. I will be going there before the weekend, so I should be able to test next time I go to the boat.
My main goal is to eliminate anything I can, while I can test it in the water. Then, once it is out of the water, I will check the condition of the shaft, etc, for wear.

[chihuahuas]

When your brother took it apart he either left something out or misplaced a shim going back together.

The noise is the pinion and ring gear misalignment. Same thing you get in a cars rear end if you misalign it.

Got to take it apart and focus on the shims and or bearing adjusters.

Or wear head phones and blast the music

[Northeaster]

Chi - thanks for the input. I know that he / we didn't leave out any parts when we put it together. Bear in mind that he is not a "backyard" mechanic. He is a factory trained mechanic, with 25 years of experience. However, he is obviously not trained or experienced on this type of transmission, so we could have put something back together "not quite right!!"

We will definitely follow your advice and check the shims, or any other bearing adjusters, when we get it apart. I will likely also replace all bearings while we have it apart, to rule them out.

[Northeaster]

Well, the boat is out of the water, and safely towed to the indoor storage / shop.
I ran the engine for 10 minutes or so, before changing the oil/filter (water from a bucket).
While doing this, I tried the engine in gear (of course with no load, out of the water) and it still squealed in fwd.

Next, I disconnected the prop shaft to trannie shaft coupler, and ran the engine again. No noticeable squeal, with the shaft disconnected.

Next, I noticed that the resistance in turning the shaft by hand was more than I thought ot should be. (I had checked this in the water a month ago, but thought it was Ok, as even in neutral, you would still be turning the trannie output shaft).
Now, with the trannie disconnected, I felt there was too much friction.
I loosened the stuffing box off all the way, and it became very easy to turn. I find this odd, as the stuffing box never ran hot, in fact, barely warm!
I do believe my engine alignment is out as well, as I could see it, even without feeler guages.
I want to remove the packing nut completely, to have a look inside it, as well as inspect the shaft. There is not enough room to remove it, to have a look, as the negine is in the way. I took off all engine mount nuts, and hoisted the engine to allow the shaft to come forward, t otake it out. I just have to take the prop off next visit.
The other option owuld have been to remove the coupler from the shaft, and then take the shaft out the stern. Still need to remove the prop, as the skeg is in the way. As well, it is barely offset, so it is not easy to get it past the skeg.

Will post more after next visit. Thanks for advice thus far!

[Northeaster]

***Update***

I have taken out the propeller shaft, and am now able to see what was causing the squealing sound.

The engine is not properly aligned with the stern tube. As the stuffing box hose (and stuffing box) is connected to the stern tube, it is also mis-aligned, therefore causing the prop shaft to rub on one side of the inside of the stuffing.

I had tried to better align the engine in the fall, but I was not really able to move the engine, side to side, as much as I would have liked. As the new engine mounts are only sloted on one end (have single fixed hole) in the other end, they won't move very much.

I will unbolt the engine mounts from the engine beds, and then align the engine, as the mounts will be free to slide on the beds. Then I will see if any of the old bolt holes still can be used to bolt down the mounts. Where needed, I will drill and tap the steel engine beds so that the mounts can be bolted down where needed, and not just where the old holes are.

Or, I will modify the new mounts to be be sloted on both ends, like the old ones were, so they are free to move more.

One thing that I find interesting is how there is no vibration in the drive system at all, despite the misalignment. The only problem is the squealing, from the shaft rubbing on the inside of the stuffing box tube.

[senormechanico]

Don't bother doing an excellent alignment out of the water due to hull distortions.

You need to do the final alignment when the boat is back in the water and has been sitting for a couple of days. The hull will then be in its "normal" shape.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Don't bother doing an excellent alignment out of the water due to hull distortions.

You need to do the final alignment when the boat is back in the water and has been sitting for a couple of days. The hull will then be in its "normal" shape.

Absolutely true - which may be why the shaft was so far off in the first place, the previous owner did it on land and never did the "final alignment" in the water.
- - This is also true of the standing rigging of a sailboat. You can to the "prep" work on land but only after the boat is back in the water can your do the final tuning of the standing rigging.

[Northeaster]

I agree with you guys, that the final alignment has to be done in the water.

But, my mis- alignment was caused when I took the engine out, 2 years ago, in order to clean it up, and replace the engine mounts. At that time, I tried to set the new mounts to be about the same as the old mounts, height-wise, etc.
However, the old mounts had slots at the front and rear, to adjust them side to side. Unfortunately, the new mounts only had slots at one end, and just a single drilled hole at the other end. Therefore, they could not be placed and adjusted into the exact same spot as the old mounts.

The engine had no vibration, so I got lazy, and didn't try to align it further. Also, with the stuffing box hose on the stern tube, and very little "spare" room on the shaft, it was impossible to see how it was not in the center of the stern tube. It looked fine from outside the boat.
There is a chance that the stern tube is not properly aligned to the hull or propeller shaft, but it has worked for 30 years, so..

To recap - the engine / prop has no vibrations, and work fine, other than the fact that the stuffing box / stern tune rubs on the shaft, as it turns. If I can center that better, the squeal will go away, and i should be fine.