Tranny burning up (longish)

[AdamY]

The previous owner did the repower of our boat and did it horribly.

He took out the Volvo and dropped in the Yanmar. When he found it didnt fit between the stringers he cut chunks of stringer out until it barely fit. Meaning one of the mounts had only one screw in it and the rear mounts had washers to spacer it up because if it was mounted properly there would be no stringer to screw them into. This resulted in an engine mounted almost horizontally flat and that wouldnt reach the existing shaft. So they had an 18" coupling fabricated (must have been cheaper than a new shaft) and the end result was an engine so poorly aligned that the packing gland was actually bent upward to align with the transmission.

When we did our big refit we had all of this remedied. Which involved laying up more stringer aft and repairing the chopped out pieces of stringer. We also bouought a new shaft and coupling of the peoper length and had everythiing properly aligned. This meant the engine was at a much steeper angle (but still well below the 20 degrees specced as max) and further aft. This all makes pulling the tranny harder. I am still apprehensive that I will be able to do it without pulling the engine and hanging it with a come along on timbers :-( ) Behind it into the engine room is a mizzen mast step and it sits right under a bulkhead abive the engine.

Anyway, there is the long answer. If there was anything i thought we had bulletproofed before leaving it was the engine/transmission. Oh well, such is cruising.

[never monday]

Adam. There is an ID plate on the trans it dictates what fluid and what quantity to fill it. The hole is just a breather. I agree with Wheels that you have the wrong oil and probably too much in there.
The proper way to check it is to remove the dip stick, wipe it dry, reinsert it WITHOUT rethreading it. just set it on the threads. the fluid should come to within 1mm of the line at the bottom of the dipstick.

Normal instalation angle is 15 deg.

Get it appart and flushed with something. I usualy will use chlorinated brake parts cleaner. You can insert the straw thru the dipstick and let it drain out the bottom. reseat the seal and fill with ATF. I'm almost positive the KBW is an ATF box. You should be able to do this without removing it from the boat. It'll take you a few hours and $10.00 in chemicles, but it's worth the try.

[AdamY]

Originally Posted by never monday

Adam. There is an ID plate on the trans it dictates what fluid and what quantity to fill it. The hole is just a breather. I agree with Wheels that you have the wrong oil and probably too much in there.
The proper way to check it is to remove the dip stick, wipe it dry, reinsert it WITHOUT rethreading it. just set it on the threads. the fluid should come to within 1mm of the line at the bottom of the dipstick.

Normal instalation angle is 15 deg.

Get it appart and flushed with something. I usualy will use chlorinated brake parts cleaner. You can insert the straw thru the dipstick and let it drain out the bottom. reseat the seal and fill with ATF. I'm almost positive the KBW is an ATF box. You should be able to do this without removing it from the boat. It'll take you a few hours and $10.00 in chemicles, but it's worth the try.

Okay so, I should drain the oil from the dipstick. then fill it with chhlorinated brake clceaner fluid. Drain that out until I am certain the inside of the box is clean.

I assume I can do this without takking the coupler etc off. Then I should use something to tap the rear seal forward so it is formly seated and fill the tranny with ATF to within 1mm of the line without threading the stick...

Sound good?

Sounds good to me. and anythihng shy of pulling the engine is worth a try. I'll sacrifice a virgin swing a dead chicken in the air while chanting.whatever it takes ;-)

[never monday]

On the port rear lower corner should be a drain plug. I think it takes a 13mm whench. open it and drain out what you have in there. Brake parts cleaner is aerosolized so you can spray it in and try to cover as much as posible. It'll drian out or evaporate off the excess. then fill her up and see what happens.

[DeepFrz]

Adam, thanks, looks like you are okay for angle. Just a thought that kept coming in my "mind".

Good luck

Deep

[Alan Wheeler]

That was a great thought DeepFrz.
Adam, Pat has suggested what I would of as well. But just a warning. That Brake cleaner makes your eyes water, so becareful using it in the confined space. Actually it makes me feel very sick if I get too much of it. Also remember the can may have Propane as the propellant Gas, so careful with that down there as well. Otherwise you may have your trany removed in a way you don't really want. ;-)
You will probably find Kerosene as a good flusher as well and not so difficult to use in the confined space. Just poor it in and let in run through. I don't think the box has to be sparkling clean of the 30W.
I have my fingers crossed that your problem is a simple as this. Here's hoping, all the best. Oh and you make sure you tell us the result. Ummm, good or bad.

[never monday]

Adam,
Any update?

[AdamY]

No miracles for me.

I couldnt get good enough access to pull the drain plug so I used my engine oil pump and sucked out the oil.

Then I hosed off the inside with loads of brake cleaner and rotated the tranny to move it around. When I sucked out that cleaner it was clear and no oil remained.

I let the remaining solvent evaporate while I showered and when I returned I put the correct amount of ATF into the box.

Still slipping severely in forward and still running great in reverse. I should just flip my prop over ;-)

Sadly I will have to pull the tranny. this might mean removing the entire engine which I am not confident realigning myself so I am talking to the mechanic as soon as he is free.

At $1300 a new ZF is starting to look appealing. I mean I just did this rebuild 4 months ago and its already hosed I do not want to spend another several weeks in some other port months doown the line having the tranny pulled again.

Being so close to San Diego I could have it shipped to SD and then drive up to get it and avoid duty and the yard rate is cheap enough I might get away with a labor bill under 400 bucks. which would mean $1700 which is a major punch in the gut of our meager cruising kitty. On the other hand I would have a warrantied transmission that I wouuld feel better counting on than this one.

What sucks is that before I had it pulled and rebuilt the oil level never dropped an ounce, the tranny never got hot at all and the oil was always as clean as if it had just come out of the bottle. Now I spent a load of money making it better, new shims and plates etc. and my tranny is hosed.

Anyway, enough whining, I will make my decision as soon as I have a quote from the yard.

Thought I would thank you guys again and keep you updated.

Cheers,

[Alan Wheeler]

Adam I feel really bad for you. I wish you were closer, I would help you fix it.
I didn't realise you had reverse. That suggests something. Pat, does this box have a fwd and rev clutch pack?? If yes, then Adam, the Fwd pack maybe all that is needing replacing. That may not be tooo expensive if the entire box does not have to be stripped.

The other question is, did the temp seem to be lower, or did you not run it long enough to find out.

[AdamY]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Adam I feel really bad for you. I wish you were closer, I would help you fix it.
I didn't realise you had reverse. That suggests something. Pat, does this box have a fwd and rev clutch pack?? If yes, then Adam, the Fwd pack maybe all that is needing replacing. That may not be tooo expensive if the entire box does not have to be stripped.

The other question is, did the temp seem to be lower, or did you not run it long enough to find out.

To be honest, my main concern was that the tranny wasnt slippinng andn I wasnt planning on running it long enough to create significant heat.

I have the old clutch pack from my perfectly functional transmission that I had rebuilt. The only reason I had a new pack and seals and everything done was because it was already apart and pointless to put back the old stuff. The old plates were evidently within 50% of their specs and good for theoretically 50% more life.

I decided today that if I have to pull my engine to get this transmission out I dont want to ever have to do it again. Consequently $1300 for a new ZF12 isnt so bad.

I am going to see if I can get one in San Diego somewhere and drive up to get it. I assumed when I had reverse that I could get away with just replacing the forward friction disk but I assume that requires the same amount of effort as the motor has to come out to remove the transmission.

I know ordinarily one can easily drop two nuts and pull the tranny out the back but in my case I have a bulkhead and engine forward and above the tranny and unlike most boats I have a keel stepped mizzen mast aft and above. This means either the engine or the mizzen mast has to get out of the way. If the KBW10 was just the box and not that huge plate the size of the back of the engine I could probably shoehorn it out but it looks unlikely. Whatever the solution it has to come out so I am going to attempt to getit out without lifting the engine tomorrow and if that fails I will lift the engine and get a new transmission.

It seems to me that even if I put the clutch pack back together I could still have the thing go south on me down the line. I do not want to have to ever lift this motor out again as I feel it is rather rediculous that I am having to have done it twice in 4 months ;-)

Thanks for the kind words/thoughts and advice. I really appreciate it. Really I am not down over it, it is just cruising. Things happen and you fix them. Like any other adversity in life you get through it and are stronger for the experience. There are people in the world who wish they could be on a broken ketch stuck in Ensenada with a broken transmission so I have no right to complain ;-)

cheers,

[Alan Wheeler]

I know ordinarily one can easily drop two nuts and pull the tranny out the back but in my case I have a bulkhead and engine forward and above the tranny and unlike most boats I have a keel stepped mizzen mast aft and above.

If that wasn't the case, then it wouldn't be your trany that is playing up. It would be some other thing in a rediculousely hard place to get at and out of. :-)

[AdamY]

Speaking of nuts,

How hard can it be to find a replacement transmission?

MER in Seattle has a great price, like $1300. but they have been backordered since August and said December was the best I could hope for. That would also require they ship it etc.

I called Downwind Marine because they take care of cruisers in SD and thought they could tell me where I could find one in stock in San Diego. I mean San Diego was crazy with cruiser equipment. There were 3 watermaker stores in the same block on Shelter Island. But, of course, as my luck would have it, nobody has Hurth Trannys in stock in San Diego.

So the guys at downwind found me one in stock in some town (they didnt tell me) a couple hours outside of San Diego. But they want $1700, not including california sales tax (8%) and freight.

Now this is getting expensive enough for me to reconsider just rebuilding the damn thing.

If I got one from Seattle I wouldnt have to pay sales tax because I am an oregon resident and Washington state reciprocates tax laws with Oregon but if I have to spend a month in a marina here the cost benefit depreciates rapidly.

Anybody know a place I can get a ZF12 for a decent price?

If not, I may be back to the rebuilding plan.

Why does the marine industry make it so difficult for the customer to patronize it? ;-)

Thanks in advance,

[Tropic Cat]

Theres a Hurth Manual Transmission Model HBW 10-2 L on ebay. I wonder if it's the same unit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=270056063653

Rick in Florida

[Alan Wheeler]

The only things I can find over our way is a Fully recond 4.108 with a paragon box on the end. And I mean fully recond. Never been used since. But the opening bid is NZ$4000 which would be about US$2600 plus freight over to you which would make it out of the question.
Then there is a brand new never been used Hurth ZF150 V drive, opening bid is $800 or US$500.00
Otherwise everything else is huge engine stuff. But I will keep my eyes open for you. If somethign comes up that is cheap enough, I certainly don't mind getting it to you.

[never monday]

Adam,
I'm out of pocket untill Monday. I'll get on it when I'm back in the shop. I hate this 3 weeks ago I eBayed an HBW10. It went for $400.00