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Old 26-05-2022, 14:39   #1
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Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Hi. I work commercially on small sail vessels around the UK. I have often been told that you are supposed to have your certificates with you when you are sailing commercially. I would rather leave them at home, as if they get lost or damaged, replacements are expensive and time consuming. Also, for me, it's a fairly bulky file that would cost a fortune to replace entirely.

My question is, is there any legal reason that I HAVE to carry them with me as I sail commercially in the UK? Of course, on request I can provide digital copies instantaneously, and my original certificates could be presented, provided I'm given time to go home to retrieve them.

I have looked through MGN 280, and found nothing regards to any requirement for your original certification to be present, only that your qualification should be valid.

In my experience, I have never had my original certificates checked in the UK, other than by a prospective employer. Has anyone here had a cert check by the authorities? If so, what happens if you don't present the originals straight away?
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Old 26-05-2022, 14:41   #2
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Can you put them on a thumb drive? Might be handy to have them with you in case someone runs into you.

Sorry, don't know what the laws say.

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Old 26-05-2022, 14:48   #3
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Thanks Ann.

I keep a copy of all of my certificates saved on my phone and tablet, and backed up using cloud storage just in case those both fail. Digital copies of my cert aren't an issue for me, I'd just rather not be lugging around the originals.
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Old 26-05-2022, 14:57   #4
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

I agree, there's nothing like hard copy.

Good luck with it, mate.

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Old 26-05-2022, 15:18   #5
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

What Iíve done for what itís worth is take originals and get copies that are signed and stamped at the bank
They usually have someone what can do that
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Old 26-05-2022, 17:50   #6
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Since you are in the UK, make copies of the originals. Take the originals AND the copies to a Notary Public or a Solicitor and have him "attest" on the copies that they are "true copies" of the originals. Take the notarized copies to sea with you. Leave the originals at home.

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Old 26-05-2022, 23:02   #7
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Bring the originals. Many places will not accept copies. I carry my commercial RYA aboard
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Old 26-05-2022, 23:23   #8
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Since you are in the UK, make copies of the originals. Take the originals AND the copies to a Notary Public or a Solicitor and have him "attest" on the copies that they are "true copies" of the originals. Take the notarized copies to sea with you. Leave the originals at home.

Cheers!

TrentePieds
Yep duly "notarised"* copies are equivalent to original documents in every jurisdiction that I am aware of.


*Depending on jurisdiction, there are various names for the process, notarisation, certification, attestation... but basically a person authorised by legislation to do so sights the origiinal and endorses the copy.
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Old 27-05-2022, 06:57   #9
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

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Yep duly "notarised"* copies are equivalent to original documents in every jurisdiction that I am aware of.


*Depending on jurisdiction, there are various names for the process, notarisation, certification, attestation... but basically a person authorised by legislation to do so sights the origiinal and endorses the copy.


Absolute not the case. In most jurisdictions they will only accept the notary process of that jurisdiction . Greece for example will not recognise foreign notaries.

Bring the originals.
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Old 27-05-2022, 19:14   #10
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Short answer.

Yes.

Copy not good enough, it is good enough for your employer, for their records. To prove they checked.

So employer can prove they have carried out their due diligence. And can show to MCA they hired appropriate certified crew.

Your best bet is to contact MCA and ask. Donít relay on an internet opinion.

I donít carry mine when out sailing or going fishing. But I am not sailing or going fishing commercially.

If for some reason you loose certificate or it gets damaged, you can get it replaced by contacting MCA (YM might need to go through RYA).
You will have to fill out form explaining what occurred. They may require it to be notarized.
An examiner can issue a temporary certificate which will be followed by a replacement.

Itís worth while having a copy of it in a safe place at home, JIK, easiest way to find out all the info required to get a replacement.
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Old 28-05-2022, 00:14   #11
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Have I ever been asked for my certificate?
yes.

Are you likely to be? Depends how much you work. Where and what type of vessel.

Who might ask. If you are even unfortunate enough to be involved in an incident or reportable near miss. You will most likely be asked.
You may be lucky and this will never happen.

If your vessel requires a survey and you happen to be working, pretty good chance of being asked. Depends on who is carrying out survey.

Consequence of not being able to produce actual certificate. While it could be a personal fine, or fine to vessel.
More likely just a bollocking, followed by lecture, warning and subsequent embarrassment,
Depends on where you are working, what level, who’s asking,

The real problem, if you are there in a professional capacity, you give a pretty crap first impression if you can’t answer the easy questions or pass the easy tests. Which will lead to much more scrutiny.

Have I ever been unable to produce a certificates, actually yes I have, it was embarrassing. And it got more embarrassing. Fortunately I wasn’t the only person who was embarrassed. It was a learning opportunity. For a few people.

For most employers, (if they are smart) it’s a condition of employment.
As an employer. I can confirm many employees are often not aware of this.
Even though they get informed.
Once, is a learning opportunity. You will be possibly be replaced.
Twice, you appear to have learning difficulties.

If for some reason, It gets forgotten, The error is reported. I can produce a copy, which I can send if required to equivalent of MCA and all will be ok. And no I won’t pay for the courier.

Would the UK be more lenient, possibly, although I used to work there I never found out the hard way. I always had my certification with me when I worked there.
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Old 28-05-2022, 03:26   #12
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

Again just carry the original. My YM certificate has been all over the world and yes youíll be asked for it
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Old 28-05-2022, 03:40   #13
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pirate Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

I carry my latest ticket with me plus the last 2 thus showing continuation.. also my latest is a very basic version which does not show my Power and Sail to 24 metres and 80GT.
RYA is getting sloppy..
I have been asked for them though not often.. maybe 5 times in 20yrs.
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Old 28-05-2022, 20:18   #14
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Re: Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Absolute not the case. In most jurisdictions they will only accept the notary process of that jurisdiction . Greece for example will not recognise foreign notaries.

Bring the originals.
I believe that they will accept if notarized and also apostilled.
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Old 29-05-2022, 01:04   #15
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Do you legally have to keep your CoC's with you?

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I believe that they will accept if notarized and also apostilled.


Again , most jurisdictions will only accept notarised documents from notaries within the jurisdictions.

For example Greece has different rules as whether the document must be witness by a Greek lawyer ( in the case of a bill of sale) as opposed to a notary . It will not recognise as an official copy , a foreign notarised document.

What the problem bringing originals. I carry original ships papers , competency certs and my passports , drivers licences etc.
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