Silent Yachts Electric Cat

[tp12]

Originally Posted by StuM

220 years and counting!
A few milestones:
1800 Volta
1836 Daniell
1859 Planté
1880 Faure
1886 Gassner
1899 Jungner
1901 Edison
Early 1900's heyday of electric vehicles.
Last 70 years, several new technologies.

Even your own superficial analysis here shows the uptick in technology development in the last 70 years (over the 220 since Volta) and even spending 10 minutes on more detailed analysis shows how your initial comments adds zero value to progressing the conversation and only holds a personal utility.


Maybe we've taken battery tech as far as we can? That doesn't survive even 3 minutes with google. I mean, really.


Anyway, let's move on.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by tp12

Even your own superficial analysis here shows the uptick in technology development in the last 70 years (over the 220 since Volta) and even spending 10 minutes on more detailed analysis shows how your initial comments adds zero value to progressing the conversation and only holds a personal utility.


Maybe we've taken battery tech as far as we can? That doesn't survive even 3 minutes with google. I mean, really.


Anyway, let's move on.

Nah. Let's not. My next electric boat, if there is one, will have Edison cells.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Nah. Let's not. My next electric boat, if there is one, will have Edison cells.

Ok, why not I love a good bit of irony as much as the next man.

[moseriw]

We shall consider that there is a big economic aspect in it too. I have heard about a battery in sort of a clockwork that was built sometimes between 1800 and 1850 and the battery is still having very small power.

The point is: they do not have a clue how it works and do not want to destroy it to find it out. And from WWI there were some ferro..something batteries that were designed for a 50+ years lifecycle. Still in production for power plants but I think the smallest one has about 5 tons.

But this will not bring us somewhere an a simple calculation. techspecs shows us:
Boat 12-20 tons
motor 20 Kw
generator 20 Kw
solar: 1m²= 160WP (15% efficiency)=0,16KWP/m² : 20KWP = 125m² = 12Kw true***

Diesel Engine = 15.000 USD
Generator + motor + batteries + chargers ++ = 45.000 USD

Averarage mileage an ower makes a year 300 NM 5 litres/hr 60 KW (coastal leisure) Fuel cost 400 USD

Generator 20 KW, fuel cost 2 litres/hr 300 NM
Fuel cost 130 USD

YES BUT THE SOLAR!!!! F...K I'm through with it. calculate that scrap by yourself or just search the posts, there is enough about insufficient harvesting compared to the m².

And I have 2,8m² myself and it gives me 1/3 of my daily requirement of 380 Ah. So I ought to be fine...



*** Mr Google says:
The highest efficiency solar panels can reach almost 23 percent efficiency. But the average efficiency of solar panels falls between the 15 to 18 percent efficiency range.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by StuM

220 years and counting!
A few milestones:
1800 Volta
1836 Daniell
1859 Planté
1880 Faure
1886 Gassner
1899 Jungner
1901 Edison
Early 1900's heyday of electric vehicles.
Last 70 years, several new technologies.

Actually there were some found in the middle east from BC. They believe they were used for electroplating.

[moseriw]

News:
https://plugboats.com/new-solid-stat...6-more-energy/

[Lunasea47]

Something fishy with this platform.. In my personal experience solar panels rarely give much more output than about 50% of their rated output. The added cost in dollars and and impact on the environment from solar panel and battery manufacture is high. What do you do at night, which is longer than daylight? The possible way this makes any sense is on a sailboat... but then you significantly reduce the solar charge benefit due to shading from the sails. Best customer for this solution is the average boater that never leaves the dock.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by tp12

Even your own superficial analysis here shows the uptick in technology development in the last 70 years (over the 220 since Volta) and even spending 10 minutes on more detailed analysis shows how your initial comments adds zero value to progressing the conversation and only holds a personal utility.


Maybe we've taken battery tech as far as we can? That doesn't survive even 3 minutes with google. I mean, really.


Anyway, let's move on.

I am a big fan of EP for many reasons, but we also need to be honest about the battery challenge.
There has been very little progress in battery tech in the last 20 years, and all the headlines with a new super battery around the corner has never paid off.

What kind of really game changing battery technologies did you find in your google search? Not being rethorical here, I am genuinly interested, but I haven't seen anything really promising. The most promising lately is some with a new electrolyte (saltwater if i remember correctly) but it is not going to be anywhere near fossil fuels in energy density - unfortunately.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

I am a big fan of EP for many reasons, but we also need to be honest about the battery challenge.
There has been very little progress in battery tech in the last 20 years, and all the headlines with a new super battery around the corner has never paid off.

What kind of really game changing battery technologies did you find in your google search? Not being rethorical here, I am genuinly interested, but I haven't seen anything really promising. The most promising lately is some with a new electrolyte (saltwater if i remember correctly) but it is not going to be anywhere near fossil fuels in energy density - unfortunately.

Hmmm, if I was genuine about learning something I would be doing that research myself.

Batteries still have a lot of challenges to overcome and that includes energy density. But not having yet commercialised a technology doesn't mean that it isn't a useful advancement in technology. You moving the goalposts to "really game changing battery technologies" isn't helpful .. you make it sound like improvement is worthless. It's definitely not. The investment into battery research since the uptake of EVs, for example, has increased considerably. Lithium ion batteries have become safer, for example, with electrode materials and electrolytes used. The price of all of these has reduced significantly over the last 20 years due to new storage tech, safety tech and manufacturing tech.

Very little battery progress in 20 years? Let's be serious. Perhaps within some narrow boundaries that you've defined but the initial statement is incorrect. Google solid state batteries. Utility size/grid scale batteries.

This increased spend on research and it's resultant output, regardless of initial application, will benefit all of us. Just because it's not as dense as diesel doesn't mean it's not useful or even enabling some types of sailors to move on from diesel altogether. Most racers could drop their diesels today. We already have one example on this thread of a sailor who uses very little diesel compared to most and only to run a generator in a true hybrid application. Most cruisers could do that today.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by tp12

Hmmm, if I was genuine about learning something I would be doing that research myself.

Batteries still have a lot of challenges to overcome and that includes energy density. But not having yet commercialised a technology doesn't mean that it isn't a useful advancement in technology. You moving the goalposts to "really game changing battery technologies" isn't helpful .. you make it sound like improvement is worthless. It's definitely not. The investment into battery research since the uptake of EVs, for example, has increased considerably. Lithium ion batteries have become safer, for example, with electrode materials and electrolytes used. The price of all of these has reduced significantly over the last 20 years due to new storage tech, safety tech and manufacturing tech.

Very little battery progress in 20 years? Let's be serious. Perhaps within some narrow boundaries that you've defined but the initial statement is incorrect. Google solid state batteries. Utility size/grid scale batteries.

This increased spend on research and it's resultant output, regardless of initial application, will benefit all of us. Just because it's not as dense as diesel doesn't mean it's not useful or even enabling some types of sailors to move on from diesel altogether. Most racers could drop their diesels today. We already have one example on this thread of a sailor who uses very little diesel compared to most and only to run a generator in a true hybrid application. Most cruisers could do that today.

No need to be salty, I have spent a lot of time on this topic, and I do not share your optimism. Solid State batteries are not going to change the range for EP in any significant way.

Li-ion battery types have been the most viable option for nearly a decade now, and the prices are not comming down, actually many believe that they will go up. With the new challenges in the world, that may change a bit.

On the other hand i do think that EP is a great option for perhaps the majority of sailboats, if people would be realistic about what kind of range they actually need. For passagemakers it is of course another matter.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

No need to be salty, I have spent a lot of time on this topic, and I do not share your optimism. Solid State batteries are not going to change the range for EP in any significant way.

Li-ion battery types have been the most viable option for nearly a decade now, and the prices are not comming down, actually many believe that they will go up. With the new challenges in the world, that may change a bit.

On the other hand i do think that EP is a great option for perhaps the majority of sailboats, if people would be realistic about what kind of range they actually need. For passagemakers it is of course another matter.

Solid state batteries increase capacity by up to three times yet you state it won't change range in any significant way? And you've pivoted to that argument from saying "there's been very little progress in battery tech in the last 20 years" This is why I'm having a hard time taking your comments seriously.



Yes, battery prices have come down but you've now moved the goalposts, again, to the last decade from 20 years. I think this is a result of bias.



My point regarding applications I made in my last post still stands. Racers can and are doing it now, no problem. Cruisers are doing it right now as a true hybrid and getting good results with appropriately spec'd systems. The evidence is in this thread. If I was spec'ing a new boat now there's no way I'd be driving the props directly by diesel, even for a "passagemaker". A true, appropriately spec'd, hybrid system with DC genset is by far a more efficient system. And it's ready for improvements in storage tech such that you can upgrade your storage and get rid of your DC genset in the future when storage tech improves sufficiently.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

Solid state batteries increase capacity by up to three times yet you state it won't change range in any significant way? And you've pivoted to that argument from saying "there's been very little progress in battery tech in the last 20 years" This is why I'm having a hard time taking your comments seriously.

What solid state battery is in large scale production?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What solid state battery is in large scale production?

Why do you think your question is relevant to this discussion?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

Why do you think your question is relevant to this discussion?

You listed it as a big recent development..but so far it falls in with the other new breakthrus that hit the media and then never turn into anything real.

So I take it, you were just saying things and it wasn't relevant to the discussion?

Other than applying economy of scale to lithium, nothing really new in the last 20yrs and that's looking like it's played out as price drops have slowed substantially.

So what new technology has came out and made it to market in the last 20yrs.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You listed it as a big recent development..but so far it falls in with the other new breakthrus that hit the media and then never turn into anything real.

So I take it, you were just saying things and it wasn't relevant to the discussion?

Other than applying economy of scale to lithium, nothing really new in the last 20yrs and that's looking like it's played out as price drops have slowed substantially.

So what new technology has came out and made it to market in the last 20yrs.

That's right, it's a very recent development and an advancement in battery tech. It was in response to the advancement in technology statement that very little has happened, which isn't true.



If you want to talk about new technologies that have been commercialised, feel free. To dismiss solid state because it hasn't been commercialised yet, though, is premature and belies a bias in my opinion.