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psneeld · 04-11-2011, 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

I don't know, frankly. My drogue experience was during a typhoon that tracked fairly erratically for that time of year (in South China Sea). It originated off the Philippines, but instead of recurving over southern China, skirted up the coast of Vietnam.

In any case, I can certainly imagine a non-cyclonic storm system that would take a day or more to pass over. Again, the Pardeys have written extensively of the advantages of sea anchors/heaving to vs. drogues, and one of the main factors they cite is not prolonging one's exposure to the weather in question.

Agreed...that's my original point...don't sail INTO the path of a storm and when known...and it's not tough...sail away from it's center or direction...

Then again...if it's going to be a short duration due to the speed of the storm...then staying put is an option if your boat can handle it...but you have to pick the right option all things considered or stand by for the consequences.

In today's world, there are enough ways to get wx info in most places in the world to avoid major storms. I have made the aquaintence of many a voyager that rarely sails/steams through severe storms anymore due to available forecasting

goboatingnow · 04-11-2011, 06:27

As a part time non-professional delivery skipper, just ashore after a rough one. I totally support the decision to abandon ship.

Firslty to the armchair theorists , you cannot resolve actions from the comfort of your home. Secondly to the gadget merchants ( ie I use X or Y sail or whatever, I liked the one about using a wind generator, have you ACTUALLY seen one in a storm), I;d say you can speculate that you would have donw this or that or used this or that, but in the end the sea can overwhelm the lot.

Its unlikely that any sail combination would have made any difference. The 393 is a robust vessel, and Beneteau make them strong. ( that story puts to bed all this nonsense about bluewater rubbish). The major decisions that a skipper takes in this situation are to preserve life rather then to save objects. Its easier to speculate that one could have "toughed it out", but perhaps that might of happended at a cost of a life or two. Dont think youd think much of limping into Bermuda, missing crew, but with an intact boat.

This is not a function of a particular boat or her actions , sometimes the dice is thrown and you have no choice.

Dave

Mark1977 · 04-11-2011, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As a part time non-professional delivery skipper, just ashore after a rough one. I totally support the decision to abandon ship.

Firslty to the armchair theorists , you cannot resolve actions from the comfort of your home. Secondly to the gadget merchants ( ie I use X or Y sail or whatever, I liked the one about using a wind generator, have you ACTUALLY seen one in a storm), I;d say you can speculate that you would have donw this or that or used this or that, but in the end the sea can overwhelm the lot.

Its unlikely that any sail combination would have made any difference. The 393 is a robust vessel, and Beneteau make them strong. ( that story puts to bed all this nonsense about bluewater rubbish). The major decisions that a skipper takes in this situation are to preserve life rather then to save objects. Its easier to speculate that one could have "toughed it out", but perhaps that might of happended at a cost of a life or two. Dont think youd think much of limping into Bermuda, missing crew, but with an intact boat.

This is not a function of a particular boat or her actions , sometimes the dice is thrown and you have no choice.

Dave

Well put. I hope the Captain will stick around the forum as well, his 44 years experience will be an asset to our community.

**Jim Cate** · 04-11-2011, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

In any case, I can certainly imagine a non-cyclonic storm system that would take a day or more to pass over. Again, the Pardeys have written extensively of the advantages of sea anchors/heaving to vs. drogues, and one of the main factors they cite is not prolonging one's exposure to the weather in question.

I believe that one's SOG when lying to a JSD is pretty similar to when lying hove to... certainly not enough difference to offset the advantages of the JSD, especially in a modern fin keel type hull.

That aside, the chaotic seas described by the skipper would compromise the success of either method. We encountered such a storm about 50 miles north of Lord Howe island in 1996. Combination of wind backing fairly rapidly, a big southerly swell and the East Australia current lead to large waves from several directions. Periodically they would come together in a form of constructive interference and produce one of much larger height and steepness. We experienced several knockdowns and lost some deck gear, but were fortunate enough to not suffer any hull damage. We were fore-reaching under storm canvas making a couple of knots during this period, and found it an adequate method except when encountering the "rogue" waves. These larger and steeper waves, coming from a different quarter than the prevailing ones simply overwhelmed the boat and threw her down on her side.

With that experience behind me I can well imagine the skippers concern about further hull damage in the lightly built Bennie. I too think that his decision to abandon was correct, and thank him for his forthright description of the events.

Cheers,

Jim

goboatingnow · 04-11-2011, 07:13

Quote:

With that experience behind me I can well imagine the skippers concern about further hull damage in the lightly built Bennie.

I believe the skipper commented that the Bene was incredibly tough having survived three knock-downs with the rig still up

Dave

**Hud3** · 04-11-2011, 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld

...I do sympathize with the skipper as a delivery captain as I am one too...and it is TOTALLY different jumping on a boat that's not yousrs and heading out

I've heard this over and over from friends who've done deliveries on boats they met for the first time a couple of days before shoving off. You never know what issues are hidden from immediate view, waiting to bite you in the a$$ at the worst possible moment.

Quote:

....Dying prematurely is a risk management decision and I prefer happy hour to funerals.

**sneuman** · 04-11-2011, 07:35

... Well, he did express concern about hull damage (delamination), too. Even in a stoutly built boat, the impact of a 30+' wall of water is a sobering experience. We had one impact that stove a port light but felt like the whole hull would buckle, too. Luckily, the boat (a Hong Kong-built Taipan 28) was built like a tank and suffered no other structural damage to the hull despite getting pounded for many hours.

**Jim Cate** · 04-11-2011, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I believe the skipper commented that the Bene was incredibly tough having survived three knock-downs with the rig still up

Dave

Dave, to me "incredibly tough" would have been surviving three knockdowns without hull and other damage that lead to abandonment.

I'm not engaging in Bennie Bashing here, but I think that this sort of factual evidence should be of interest to those folks who keep asking about the suitability of such boats for offshore usage.

Cheers,

Jim

David_Old_Jersey · 04-11-2011, 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As a part time non-professional delivery skipper, just ashore after a rough one. I totally support the decision to abandon ship.

As an Armchair professional

I too support the decision to abandon ship (as I mentioned on P1 or 2). Captain's decision, right or wrong.

Subsequent info does (IMO) make it the right decision.

Quote:

This is not a function of a particular boat or her actions , sometimes the dice is thrown and you have no choice.

I agree that sometimes "sh#t happens"..........but it helps if you don't load the dice against you.

Whilst not meant as a criticism of the Skipper (business is business

), IMO the major (preventable) influences on the outcome:-

1) Unknown / inexperianced crew.

2) Skipper not 110% familiar with the boat (every nook & cranny).

3) Weather window. Am not familiar with the area - but other comments suggest they were pushing there luck.

Not to say that the outcome would not have been the same, and of course setting off as they did was not in itself reckless - just that the dice was loaded before they left port...........

chala · 04-11-2011, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Orion

But, maybe only professional delivery Captains will understand that, in this type of business, you are dealing with boats that may not come as per your standards and specifications. You take them as they are and do the best you can with the equipment available. Also, the level of knowledge and experience of my paying guests had to do with my decisions. .

I find it reckless that you may leave port in these conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Orion

Their safety was my priority.Captain Thierry Simon.

Really?

mbianka · 04-11-2011, 09:49

After reading Captain Simon's description of what happened I think he surely made the right call. I'm taking away the following "Lessons Learned" from this abandonment:

1) Never count on your engine to help you in rough seas or think it won't fail you. I think many of us have read of many situations where this has occurred. It certainly makes the case for having well secured solar panels or ones that can be deployed in an emergency to keep some electronics charged up. A wind generator would also help if conditions enable it to operate if only intermitantly

2) I agree with Boatman 61 that heaving to might have been the best option. Having read Lin & Larry Pardy's STORM TACTICS book and watched the companion DVD I think that heaving to might be the best course of action in surviving a storm. While the boat did take a pretty good pounding. I think running with the storm as the Captain mentioned only prolonged that pounding until finally something "broke" and allowed the hull to be compromised which ended with the correct decsion to abandon the boat. Though I think he had to work with what he had on board and did not have the luxuary of a lot of options (like maybe having a sea anchor available). Though it sounds like it was fortunate there were enough "crew" to help keep manning the bilge pumps until help arrived without getting totally exhausted.

Personally, I don't ever plan to be out in such conditions but, I'm planning on practicing using a sea anchor and some of the techniques of heaving to just the same. I thank Captain Simon for sharing his experience and am glad he got himself and the crew back home safe.