Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Jim D

I think it is just as controversial to risk a brilliant 40 year old life by sitting such a person on top of a Saturn booster rocket, as it is to let a 16 year old drive a race car.

A 40 year old is an adult and is therefore legally responsible for the decisions they make. A 16 year old is a minor and some adult somewhere is ultimately responsible for them.

Big difference.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Looking Forward

It cuts both ways I agree completely, but when something like this that is in my opinion abusive occurs it forces people to step in to protect others. We don't all need regulations.

I hope the abbé post is accurate, that is great news!

I think that is really stretching the definition of "abusive" and I think at this point most, if not all, courts would agree. How many were screaming abusive behavior when her brother (a year older) was making his recording breaking circumnavigation?

[MarkJ]

I don't see a problem with saying 'I told you so'.

I told you so.

I sincerely hope with every cell of my body and mind that she comes out of this alive, however, I totally and utterly despise those that put her out there. For those that have backed her, even in forums and 'mere' words, I think their opinions are wrong, no matter how they have justified them. I don't ridicule them as I have been ridiculed for my opinion, I just think their opinions wrong.

I just can't stop thinking of this youngster being 1,500nms upwind slog in one direction and 2,000nms down gale in the other direction and just saying 'I don't want to be here, please let me off'.

I remember the useless twat I was at 16 (some will still say I am) and some say she is far beyond people like me. But for pittys sake can't anyone see this is about some fame game and kids are rolled up in American Idol, Brittan’s Got Talent and Red Faces? Even Biggest Loser is about 'fame'. In fact Biggest Loser is probably a great example of people proven not to give a damn about themselves until a TV camera rolls.

The hell we have allowed this teenager to go through is unforgivable.
Saying they, and 13 year olds who climb Mt Everest, are somehow near to the mentors who pioneered these routes alone, the Chitchesters, the Slocumbs, the Cottee's, the Edmund Hillaries and Tensengs. These people could and did get themselves out of serious situations and many of their peers died trying. Where as the every younger fame seekers can only acheive it in optimum or 'lucky' conditions.

I hope so much this girl comes out of this alive and well, not psychologically scarred, nor her parents driven to the wall in being hounded or bankrupted. But so too I hope this scare stops all the stupid age driven media frenzied attempts at fame. I certainly hope they don't profit out of it, but I fear they will. Its blood money if so, the blood of some future child on a mindless quest of magazine front covers.

Finally I am reminded of a recent 'overdue' report on CF saying a friend was dismasted well south of Australia. Earlier his blog stopped counting the gales after this note: "54-th day of South ocean voyage. Waterbird has coordinates 61°South, 78°West. Temperature without changes [1 Deg C], 13 gales in total."

Its no place for kids.


Mark

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Search crew makes contact with teen sailor
Search crew makes contact with teen sailor - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
so it looks like she is ok for the moment.

If she was much older and more experienced she would never have gotten herself into trouble
Australian navy medics rescue injured round-the-world yachtsman | Sport | guardian.co.uk

Vendée Globe: Australian Navy to the rescue | Yacht News | Yachting World

Tony Bullimore is rescued by the navy - Telegraph

Live life, don't let it pass you by, whatever your age.

That's total BS, how old and experienced was TB and all the other round the world racers that this has happened to?

[sabray]

As a parent and a sailor. I get to experience the Joys of my good choices and the sorrows of the ones that didn't produce the outcome I expected. My kids will not as minors partake in a challenge that is record setting in its goal. For me its a good choice. Some one may feal that it is a bad choice and is reckless to allow my minors to continue living on terra firma.Without some proven intent it should not be allowed that the government intervene with that choice . The US did not intervene when Zack successfully completed his journey. If the outcome is other then successful is it then a more reckless choice?

[dana-tenacity]

The fatality rate in the single handed RTW is around 5%. Would you as a parent encourage your child to participate in an event where the chances of death are 1 in 20 or worse?
How many teenagers have circumnavigated 5,6,7? One will die soon enough.


I have a friend whose 16 yo daughter wanted a tattoo. The answer was no, until you are 21 that body of yours is mine, after that if you still want a tattoo I can't stop you. It's called parenting.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by sabray

If the outcome is other then successful is it then a more reckless choice?

Success carries it's own antidote. As long as these pre-adult sailors keep returning safely to port people can claim it is safe, but if one dies or is injured in the attempt then there is justification for asking whether these activities are too dangerous for CHILDREN to involve themselves in.

If an adult wants to risk his/her neck than that's their choice and no one else's business, but to put a child in that situation is a dereliction of your duty as a parent.

We have all heard of parents achieving glory through the actions of their children, even if it is only dad yelling at little Johnny to score the winning goal or to get straight "A"s in exams. Sometimes these things get out of hand and the kid winds up hating the position they are in and then hating the parent for forcing them into things they no longer want to do. Or for being pushed further than they ever intended to go.

At the other end of the scale is "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" where adults harm their children so that they can bask in the reflected "limelight" of the emergency services.

Where does "sending a 16 year old off on their own in a racing boat" fit in the above scale? I don't know. Maybe it doesn't fit in at all, but I'm certain of one thing. Abby isn't to blame, but her parents are.

It's not just Abby in her yacht either. Any child wanting to engage in a life threatening or dangerous activity should always be accompanied by an adult. That includes solo pilots, solo mountain climbers, etc, etc. If you want to go solo then wait to be 18. You will not be much more mature mentally or physically but at least you are legally responsible for yourself at that point.

[surfingminniwinni]

If you let your kids drive on the roads, your putting them at much greater danger! The statistics prove it. Much safer out at sea!
I do agree it was the wrong boat!

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by dana-tenacity

The fatality rate in the single handed RTW is around 5%. Would you as a parent encourage your child to participate in an event where the chances of death are 1 in 20 or worse?
How many teenagers have circumnavigated 5,6,7? One will die soon enough.


I have a friend whose 16 yo daughter wanted a tattoo. The answer was no, until you are 21 that body of yours is mine, after that if you still want a tattoo I can't stop you. It's called parenting.

I challenge that? Show me your figures. That's not even close. Really, I want to hear where you got that.

The tattoo thing I'm not even going to think about.

[sabray]

"(Where does "sending a 16 year old off on their own in a racing boat" fit in the above scale? I don't know. Maybe it doesn't fit in at all, but I'm certain of one thing. Abby isn't to blame, but her parents are. )"
Then there are gradients Like the DOVE story. Was that reckless? very different ambition and circumstance involved. One I appreciate more then the challenge of youngest to accomplish. I am sure I am not the one to regulate who can choose which course. I do think you can measure intent though. Like a heroin Addict who recently left a 5 year old in a car for 5 hours while she shot up in a hotel room. The intent had no regard for the minor and in so was reckless. I don't think that so far we have seen Reckless behavior with intent in the solo minor sailing record challenges. We could all agree particularly with hindsight some bad choices.

[04 Marine]

I'm pleased to hear that she is alive and that her boat though damaged is upright and afloat.

The truth of the matter is that she just was not experienced enough to recognize that she was in danger. As I read her blog several days back she spoke of having the rail so far under that water was shipping into the boat at the throttle quadrant. With any kind of a sea that is an accident waiting to happen. She had noted that in one day she made good some 237 miles and was trying for 250. The boat was well heeled over but the autopilot was handeling it! These statement tell me that she just did not recognize that she was well over canvased and should have reduced sail long before. Her solution...she went to bed! With 25' seas and surfing down waves at 15 knots I would not be surprised to hear that a pitchpole was the cause for the loss of rig and other damage.

As a parent and grandparent, I'm pleased that she is alive and should be rescued within a day. However, I'm also concerned that this race for I'm the youngest is counterproductive and does little more than to bring the long arm of regulations closer to bear on the industry as a whole.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Doodles

I challenge that? Show me your figures. That's not even close. Really, I want to hear where you got that.

The tattoo thing I'm not even going to think about.

Here I've done the calculation for you. There have been 7 BOC/AA/5-Ocean races and 6 Vendee Globe's with a total of 241 racers and 4 have been lost at sea. That's 1.6%!

[Factor]

Originally Posted by David M

...They are children for gawds sake..

Originally Posted by dana-tenacity

a kid in the Southern Ocean in June???? And JW was bloody lucky not to die on her first night out.

Dont know about Abby but as I have explained in words of one syllable previously Jessica was not a child at law, no parent had the right to prohibit - otr indeed permit. Should Jessicas parents - for example locked her in her room, they would have been guilty of the offence of Depravation of Liberty

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

I want every cent of her rescue charged to her parents.

Not gunna happen - Australia takes its obligations seriously - Even though we have the SAR responsibility for huge amounts of the planet comparatively speaking, we recognise our responsibilities.

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

A 16 year old is a minor and some adult somewhere is ultimately responsible for them. .

See above - not the case in Jessicas instance.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Factor

Dont know about Abby but as I have explained in words of one syllable previously Jessica was not a child at law,

The age of majority in Australia is 18. She is not an adult.

Originally Posted by Factor

no parent had the right to prohibit - otr indeed permit. Should Jessicas parents - for example locked her in her room, they would have been guilty of the offence of Depravation of Liberty

That's because locking you up without due legal process is an offence at any age. It's got nothing to do with adulthood.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

The age of majority in Australia is 18. She is not an adult..

Yes she is - and its not an issue of Australia - its an issue of state law in this case Queensland. At 16 she has the right of self determination in Qld. She can do anything she wants (legally) and her parents cannot stop her in any way.

But what would I know - I spent the better part of my life working in the Qld justice system