Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[Seahunter]

An interesting note...we were told that all communication was cut off because of the demast, yet the sat dishes are still standing in the rescue photo.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIi2DVCfyK...00/IMG3230.jpg

[Hirophant]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

An interesting note...we were told that all communication was cut off because of the demast, yet the sat dishes are still standing in the rescue photo.

Those white things on the back are her wind generators. Interesting that they survived though, along with one of the overhanging two solar panels AFAICT. Can't tell if the gennies still have their blades, she put new stronger ones on at Cape Town after the old ones all broke.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Doodles; I saw this boat in the yard. It was modified. You screw with the engineering, suffer the consequences.

Just because the boat was modified doesn't mean that the original designer or another competent designer wasn't consulted to vet the changes.

[Get-a-Life]

I guess of course IF Abby had succeeded we would be all placing our older type of cruisers on the market and buying open 40's to go cruising in.

Those with bigger families would purchase an open 60.

I can just see it now, down in the Southern Ocean in mid June with junior water skiing out the back,"Hey Dad, this is cool, can we go around again?"
"Agh, gee, it's my turn, can I have the MPS up? I'm 1 year younger and I want to go faster."
"No, you both know the 12 year old Lebanese girls did that 6 months ago."

Help! I must stop drinking Pepsi, what do they put in that stuff??

[surfingminniwinni]

Originally Posted by Get-a-Life

I guess of course IF Abby had succeeded we would be all placing our older type of cruisers on the market and buying open 40's to go cruising in.

Those with bigger families would purchase an open 60.

I can just see it now, down in the Southern Ocean in mid June with junior water skiing out the back,"Hey Dad, this is cool, can we go around again?"
"Agh, gee, it's my turn, can I have the MPS up? I'm 1 year younger and I want to go faster."
"No, you both know the 12 year old Lebanese girls did that 6 months ago."

Help! I must stop drinking Pepsi, what do they put in that stuff??

Mate you need to come home in a hurry!!!!!

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Two questions arise from the last statement:

1) What season was it was it designed to go around in?

2) Was the boat designed to have a fatigue life that would let it go around twice?

You would have to have the designer answer these questions.

Question 1) If you know anything about conditions that the Vendee and AA racers have encountered in the southern ocean during their races, then you will know that the "season" doesn't matter that much. They have routinely hit storms exactly like the one Abby was in.

Question 2) Open 60's, 50's and 40's routinely do more than one race, some several before they are retired. This is easy to confirm by looking at the race rosters.

[dana-tenacity]

Anyone who thinks going to the Southern Ocean in winter is OK is nuts. I would go so far as to say they are merely displaying the level of their own ignorance.
There is a reason the RTW races are scheduled when they are - to avoid the Southern Ocean in winter. And these are the guys who are really good, really experienced and have really well prepared boats.
I've been down there once - in summer. I would do it again - I wouldn't do it in winter.
Get a grip.

[plebian99]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Question 2) Open 60's, 50's and 40's routinely do more than one race, some several before they are retired. This is easy to confirm by looking at the race rosters.

Yeah, after you put some money into re-engineering everything. Refitting a open boat for cruising is the equivalent of flushing money down the toilet. The project managers see the suckers who do this coming. You would need to change the safety factor from 10% to 100%. You would also need to fix the spongy trampoline deck. The worst job would be adding some more lead onto the keep and then getting a new stability assessment. These boats are all coffins that were designed to float upside down. Anyone who puts their kid in one of these boats has sand for brains. Just ask Isabelle Autessier, she actually said that she would never cruise or put her own family in any of the open class designs! Abby and her family have more knowledge and experience than Isabelle eh?

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Question 2) Open 60's, 50's and 40's routinely do more than one race, some several before they are retired. This is easy to confirm by looking at the race rosters.

Originally Posted by plebian99

Yeah, after you put some money into re-engineering everything. Refitting a open boat for cruising is the equivalent of flushing money down the toilet. The project managers see the suckers who do this coming. You would need to change the safety factor from 10% to 100%. You would also need to fix the spongy trampoline deck. The worst job would be adding some more lead onto the keep and then getting a new stability assessment. These boats are all coffins that were designed to float upside down. Anyone who puts their kid in one of these boats has sand for brains. Just ask Isabelle Autessier, she actually said that she would never cruise or put her own family in any of the open class designs! Abby and her family have more knowledge and experience than Isabelle eh?

My response to the poster was simply that "yes" these boats are designed to do more than one race. Of course there is a refitting process and there was in this case. Does it make sense money wise? I guess so, otherwise why do they do it? Besides, that's not the question. The question was are they design to do more than one race, and the answer remains ... yes. I'm not making a judgement about the boat, just stating a fact.

[Sandero]

I haven't followed this effort closely and only read this thread to catch up. I pretty much agree with Mark on this.

Frankly, this record stuff should end when the risks are unreasonable. In this case, this young woman and her parents and the "team" which created this challenged have put scores of innocent rescuers at risk... not just HER but others.

The rescue has / will cost a lot of money and this should be born by the risk takers - Abby, her parents, her team and the sponsors who I suppose expect to cash out one way or the other.

The fact is that a child does not have the resources to undertake such challenges and this is enabled by adults - her parents, team and sponsors. This is not only exploitative but can be easily seen as irresponsible. It's great that she has learned to sail as well as she has, has the confidence to do what most adult sailors wouldn't dream of, but the risks here make this selfish.

The risk associated with a parent putting their own child in danger is bad enough and they need to sanctioned in my opinion for doing this. But the risk which bothers me more is that others have to rescue Abby is she got into trouble and it was almost inevitable that she would and she did. This was rather predictable for many of the reasons others have cited on this thread.

If a "child" goes off and does some risky behavior without parental support AND it does not draw in others to "get them out of trouble", I say let people do whatever they want with this lives and bodies. But society doesn't turn away from anyone (hopefully) in deep trouble. That's the trouble with this effort. Others who would not (may not and probably did not) approve of this challenge had to put their own lives on the line to save this child, who had no business being where she was expecting others to rescue her.

Had she been killed I would hope that they would have charged the parents and the "enabling" team with negligent homicide and I hope that they still receive a lot of scolding for what they have done.

You want to act crazy, don't involve others in your madness. That's criminal.

[David_Old_Jersey]

A thought on Dad's car analogy.........

If the parents are both car drivers they would have an inherent understanding of the risks involved in giving the car keys to their kid.


If the parents were experianced southern ocean racers onboard equivalent vessels then I would respect their decision to send their kid as being a judgement based on knowledge (of conditions and the kid's capabilities) not just wishful thinking.

And I say as racers because Abby's boat was the equivalent of a Rally Car, not the family saloon (sedan? ) of Jessica and most cruisers. 2 very different beasts to handle.

[Surveyor]

If someone wants to achieve something, no matter the age, we have no right to restrict them. It wasnt all that long ago that being 13 years old was considered grown up. It has only been the last 75 or so years that our personal liberties began being restricted based on age.

So now we have a raging debate about a 16yo being allowed by her parents to sail through extreme conditions. A 13yo girl was already denied by her Nanny Country the right to sail solo for her own safety.

Next it is YOU who is denied. They will say its for your own good but there will be more sinister underlying reasons. It may not happen in our lifetimes but it will happen, one small step at a time.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Just because the boat was modified doesn't mean that the original designer or another competent designer wasn't consulted to vet the changes.

He was consulted. This is all discussed over on the SA forum where the builder (Jonsailor) posts frequently. If you really want to know its easy to find.

[jallum]

Originally Posted by Surveyor

If someone wants to achieve something, no matter the age, we have no right to restrict them. It wasnt all that long ago that being 13 years old was considered grown up. It has only been the last 75 or so years that our personal liberties began being restricted based on age.

So now we have a raging debate about a 16yo being allowed by her parents to sail through extreme conditions. A 13yo girl was already denied by her Nanny Country the right to sail solo for her own safety.

Next it is YOU who is denied. They will say its for your own good but there will be more sinister underlying reasons. It may not happen in our lifetimes but it will happen, one small step at a time.

Fair enough - as long as we don't expect anyone to deviate from their Chosen Path™ to help us should things not go to plan. We can't really have it both ways, now can we?

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Doodles

in the southern ocean ...the "season" doesn't matter that much.

Crossing from Cape Town to Australia would approximately follow 40 degrees latitude. One could go into higher latitudes for a shorter (Great Circle) route, of course, but that would be very brave indeed in winter as it's tough enough along 40 degrees south! The sail crossing will take ~5 weeks, perhaps more.

Gale conditions in June along the Roaring 40's are considered a certainty and the frequency is officially (in Ocean Passages) listed at >10 days/month, i.e. around half the time, whereas in January gales are expected <5 days/month. Furthermore, in the winter months icebergs are considered far more likely, to the point (in the opinion of some mariners anyway) they should be expected whereas in summer months icebergs along 40 degrees are considered rare.

It therefore follows that a June crossing will see both icebergs and something like 2-3 weeks of gale force conditions whereas a summer crossing would encounter less than a week of gale conditions and be very unlikely to see icebergs. Call me a chicken, but that sure sounds like a difference in weather that would matter a lot to me!