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fursoc · 30-10-2016, 16:17

Hi everyone, if this has been answered before, my apologies, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

My family (2 adults + 2 kids aged 8, 10 when leaving) are in the early stages of planning a life of cruising starting 2018 or 2019 depending on how ready we are at the time.

I have very little experience in the water on a sailboat, and have never owned one. Obviously to do something of this nature requires quite a bit of experience to feel comfortable leaving the dock for good. Especially when kids are involved. I have signed up for some sailing lessons (competent crewing), but I can't see that giving me the experience I need.

What I feel we really need is as much time on the water as we can get. We would only be able to charter very occasionally with the costs involved, so the only solution I can see is to buy our own boat.

My question is; should I buy a trainer (~20-25ft), or should I be looking for our dream liveaboard cruiser (around ~35-40ft)?

Thanks,
Graham

**a64pilot** · 30-10-2016, 16:27

The answer is, sail as many boats as you can, start out tiny, sailing dinghies and work up.
There is logic in that, assuming unlimited time and money, I'm sure it would result in the best sailor.
However, the first sailboat I have ever owned is the one we will go cruising in, but I grew up with and around boats, all power boats though, but many of the skills are the same.
For me the thing that skewed me towards a larger boat is that I would have to keep it three hours away, and the prospect of every weekend renting motel rooms wasn't good.

**a64pilot** · 30-10-2016, 16:29

Thinking a little, there was more to it than that, I didn't know for sure, and really still don't that cruising would work out for us, that we would be sure it's what we wanted to do.
So I wanted a boat we could spend weekends on and when we could swing it two or three weeks at a time cruising.

mdbrown · 30-10-2016, 16:58

I'm pretty new to sailing myself. I bought an older MacGregor 26S this year. It isn't the little dinghy like a Laser or Sunfish, but it is pretty forgiving and lets me learn without getting hurt. It's got an ok cabin for a weekend for 2, and some do take 2 kids along as well. 4 adult would be a bit tight in my opinion. I've learned much more sailing twice a week for three months on my own boat rather than taking a lesson once a week.

DrewT · 30-10-2016, 17:01

Graham,

Any chance of renting a boat from the sailing instructors? Perhaps they have a Bene First 22 you can rent after you've gotten your ASA 101? Should be cheaper than owning a boat?

Island Time O25 · 30-10-2016, 17:05

If you have a sailing club with a sailing school nearby my advice would be to joint first and at a minimum get the certs and some experience. Also even if you initially join such a club at the lower level i.e. up to say 27ft you will still get to experience crewing and may even some local cruising as other members with larger boat memberships are always looking for crew and buddies to go sailing. At least that's been my experience when I was initially turned on to sailing about 20 years ago.

As you get more proficient and confident in your skills and understanding of wants/limitations/etc you will know which size of boat will work best for you and your family. It also may happen that your wife and/or kids will not share in your enthusiasm for sailing or won't be able to handle the seasickness, etc. Then you may just want to continue as a club member until these issues resolve themselves.

There is no point of jumping through hoops aiming at point Z when it'll turnout that you or members of your family can't overcome A, B or C.

markwesti · 30-10-2016, 17:08

To quote Tom Petty " The sky is the limit " You must (or maybe not ) have some idea what kind of boat you want . OK I know you said 35-40 . I would not rule out a Catalina 32 . Those things have a lot of space on them , as long as the chillins' could share a bunk . And you know if you want to go full blown cruiser for the family , you might want to look at something in the 42-43 ft. range like this WESTSAIL 42 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Also where you at ? What will be your start off point ?

Steadman Uhlich · 30-10-2016, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by fursoc

Hi everyone, if this has been answered before, my apologies, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

My family (2 adults + 2 kids aged 8, 10 when leaving) are in the early stages of planning a life of cruising starting 2018 or 2019 depending on how ready we are at the time.

I have very little experience in the water on a sailboat, and have never owned one. Obviously to do something of this nature requires quite a bit of experience to feel comfortable leaving the dock for good. Especially when kids are involved. I have signed up for some sailing lessons (competent crewing), but I can't see that giving me the experience I need.

What I feel we really need is as much time on the water as we can get. We would only be able to charter very occasionally with the costs involved, so the only solution I can see is to buy our own boat.

My question is; should I buy a trainer (~20-25ft), or should I be looking for our dream liveaboard cruiser (around ~35-40ft)?

Thanks,
Graham

Howdy Graham! Welcome aboard CF!

My answers below are brief and from my POV, and I am sure you will get answers from others that differ.

My Suggestions based on your situation (wife + 2 young kids):

1. Enroll your wife AND you in sailing lessons. I also suggest you have your wife take the lessons (or some) apart from you, perhaps with a female instructor. The reasons for this are complex. This is my brief answer to help your wife feel most confident on boats, and that is critical to a long lasting cruise and marriage.

2. Enroll your kids in junior sailing lessons (using very small boats) when they are old enough. Same reason as wife. Build confidence and skills.

3. Buy a smaller boat first, but make sure it is one that you can sell later. The key to that is to buy a common one in your area, a popular one in which there is local demand by others like yourself. Since we don't know your location, that is all I can suggest on that now. I encourage all members here to post their location as it helps others be more specific with suggestions.

While it is common to see people suggest a small dinghy (Laser), I don't think that is as good as a boat that can hold 2 -4 people easily. Remember, you want the wife to enjoy those days on the water too, so I also suggest a boat that has a porta potty or marine head. This can be a boat 22ft - 25 feet and can cost as little as $3K - $5K. In the USA, some very popular and commonly found boats are:
Catalina 22 (trailer sailer)
Catalina 25 (larger and usually kept in a slip in water)

Looking for a First Boat, Day Sailor or Pocket Cruiser or Trailer Sailor?

Two of the most popular (and most produced) boats that are commonly recommended are made by Catalina. Here are links to the best and most comprehensive reviews about these two boats.

Catalina 22
Read this review first for extensive information about this boat, including characteristics, design, links, and videos.
https://whichsailboat.com/2015/08/22...ina-22-review/

Catalina 25
Read this review first for extensive information about this boat, including characteristics, design, links, and videos.
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27...ina-25-review/

That kind of investment is small in boating terms. So, if you or your wife decides sailing is not as much fun as expected, you will have little to lose, and if you picked a popular boat, it is likely you can sell it for little loss but time.

4. Take some sailing lessons later in a place that has challenging conditions. The more challenging the better. Reason, to build confidence for you and your wife together as a team on a boat. Again I don't know your location, but I suggest San Francisco Bay is a good place in the USA (especially during the summer) because of high winds (20 - 30 knots typical), fog, currents, tides, traffic. I had sailed on lakes in the USA before moving to SF and the challenging conditions there and off the Pacific coast have given me the confidence to sail bigger boats and more places. I think the same may happen for you. The key to the location you choose is "WIND." SF has lots of wind during the summer.

5. Then sell that smaller boat and move up and onward.

Good luck and have fun sailing and in the forum too.

markwesti · 30-10-2016, 17:19

fursoc sorry about the hijack here , however the info I'm sure will be of interest ...
@Steady Hand , What boats are on your list ?

fursoc · 30-10-2016, 17:32

Wow! Thank you all for the great advice!

We live in Newcastle, Australia. So my start off point will most likely be the east coast of Australia.

There is a local cruising club about 10 minutes drive away, where I have enrolled myself for lessons. My wife said that she thinks that I should just teach her. My initial reaction was for her to get her own lessons as it has always been difficult teaching "in the family" IMO. But she convinced me otherwise. We'll see how it goes.

We also have quite a large Lake (Lake Macquarie) within 35 minutes drive which is both secluded and potentially quite windy with access to the Pacific. If I did buy my own boat it will probably live on this lake. There is plenty of room and plenty of places to explore for weekend getaways.

My initial thoughts were to get a smaller boat (trainer) first which we could explore the lake on, but a mate of mine said that if we were definitely going to do this then we should get the boat we want to travel in. He said this mainly because he spent a year trying to sell his smaller boat, and ended up making a massive loss on it. But also because we would know the boat inside and out by the time we were ready to depart.

Either way, I'll wait until I speak with the cruising club to see if they have any programs for this sort of thing. My course starts next weekend, and I can't wait.

Thanks again!

Mirage35 · 30-10-2016, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fursoc

... My wife said that she thinks that I should just teach her...

IMO there are a few reasons why this is NOT a good idea - you can probably guess what they are but I'll go into detail on request. We took a different approach and are glad we did.

My wife and I took a course together but at different levels: made a custom arrangement with the sailing school and a couple of friends for a liveaboard course where two were taking basic and two intermediate. We got used to sailing together while getting the same infromation from a respected and neutral third party. Much (much, much) easier on both of us, and a great confidence builder.

I recently sailed with another couple who were trying to do the "you can teach me" thing, and in their case at least it looked like a recipe for disaster. Again, I'll provide more detail if you're interested.

That's my opinion, based on a little bit of personal experience.

Steadman Uhlich · 30-10-2016, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by markwesti

fursoc sorry about the hijack here , however the info I'm sure will be of interest ...
@Steady Hand , What boats are on your list ?

Hi,
I added two boats to my post above. I have added those after reading many suggestions by esteemed sailors like Jim and Ann Cate and others here on CF. I have not owned either, but if I were in the OP's boat shoes, I would consider those, based on the recommendations of many experienced sailors who have owned them. They can be purchased for a few thousand and either kept on a trailer or in a slip depending on which is bought.

I have sailed on a Catalina 25 (among many other small boats) and while I would not want that to be my cruising boat choice (too little headroom for me and I want more storage space and tankage etc.) I think it (or the Catalina 22) would allow a young family to learn together, have some "camping" type overnight cruising experiences, and get involved in sailing for $5K or less.

Depending upon where the OP lives, there may be many other choices. For example, if I lived on Long Island Sound, I think a catboat would be high on my list. Different areas have different "local favorites." I like them and recently saw one for a few thousand that I would love to have (it is trailerable, shallow draft, small cabin).

Island Time O25 · 30-10-2016, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by fursoc

My initial thoughts were to get a smaller boat (trainer) first which we could explore the lake on, but a mate of mine said that if we were definitely going to do this then we should get the boat we want to travel in. He said this mainly because he spent a year trying to sell his smaller boat, and ended up making a massive loss on it. But also because we would know the boat inside and out by the time we were ready to depart.

I was at a similar point 12 years ago when I finally felt that I outgrew the club thing and felt ready to get my own boat. Since as you correctly pointed out the boat (of any size) can be and usually is a huge money losing proposition upon resale I went with a 27' very spartan fixer upper for all of $400. After I fixed what needed to be fixed (upon reflection I'd be better off getting a similar boat which did not involve fixing anything major for say up to $3-5K but on the other hand I got some decent experience working with fiberglass, epoxy, systems, etc) I used the boat for 5 seasons and when the diesel died and the outboard wasn't working out as I hoped I sold her for $1,100 to a guy who was going to use her as a summer liveaboard to save on rent.

Now my reasoning prior to that purchase went like this. At the time the club would cost me about $3-3.5K a year for up to 27' membership and about $4-5K for up to 32' and $6-7K for up to 40'. My benchmark was to spend within these limits both the annual running costs and amortized purchase price and/or cost of repairs less than it would cost me to be a member at that size class. In my 5 years of ownership of that boat I ended up well within this benchmark, considerably under. Had I bought a ready to sail 27 footer for say $5K and sold her for $1-2K 5 years later (or even given her away) I'd still be ahead or at least on par, especially considering that the club membership fees kept going up and 5 years later were about $1-1.5K higher.

I guess it is similar to rent vs buy in real estate. As with buying and selling even in a bad market you still at least have a chance to recoup some of the $$ whereas renting you have zero chance from the start. But with boats also as in RE example you do need a rental period in any new area to get your bearings and make a smart buying decision.

J Clark H356 · 30-10-2016, 18:54

Right now your cruising is a dream. You need to learn to sail, make some trips and spend some time on boats as a family and then decide what you want in a cruiser. I can almost assure you that what you think you want and need to cruise will be different than what you believe they are today. As you gain experiences, you will both make lists that will define what you want if you are going to spend mostly full time on a boat.

On the other hand, if you really intend to go in two to three,years, you need the boat you are going to go in so you can get it customized for the actual cruising requirements you need. For a family of 4, you will need at least 35 to 40 feet and will want more. There are a lot of other things to consider that you can only figure out once you are sailing and using the boat. I wish I could be more specific, but as you are reading and studying and actually spending weekends and weeks on the boat, there are,things you will want. Generator, solar, watermaker, washer/dryer, electronics, Bimini, dodger, enclosure, dinghy, how much fuel? All of these are items that vary from boat to boat.

My wife and I spend a lot of time on our Hunter 356, - 1008 days in 14 seasons, with our longest a 6 month cruise where we spent roughly 50% of our time on the boat in 6 months with the most continuous time of about 5 weeks. When you think about cruising before you do it, you think most of your time is sailing across long distances of ocean. In actuality, you spend most of your time at a marina or at anchor, with some passage making but not nearly as much as you initially expect. The demands for the boat and crew are different for both. Nobody can tell you what you need except yourselves. There are a lot of people on here who have strong opinions on what they want and need. I respect that, but for you and your family to live in a small contained vessel for months on end, you will need to get it right or you won't do it long and will quit. Just make sure you are patient and think through what you do and make shared decisions on what and how it is equipped. Good luck in your new endeavor.