Another broker scam, or am I being paranoid?

[skenn_ie]

As you will be immediately exporting it, you shouldn't pay Canadian sales tax, or at least be able to claim it back.

[Greg Mason]

kokajambo, if you feel something is shady, follow your instinct. Even if you had to use another entity to register, would you not feel better about it?

[La Vita Nuova]

I'm with Chotu, Do it yourself. No one can speed up the process of the USCG/DHS, Which will take some time, but nothing horrible by any means.I believe they (USCG) do offer an Expedited service. I paid a 6% buyers fee, $95 for Document fee(broker), and $30 bucks for a wire transfer fee...My 2 cents....

[Ike]

Just read through this thread. At least 50% of what is posted here is nonsense. During my work in the USCG Office of Boating Safety for over 20 years I must have helped over a hundred people import recreational boats from Canada. The process is very simple as the OP is discovering. Actually he will probably have more grief from Washington State (where my boats a registered) than from customs or Canada. DIY it. One thing to make sure you do, keep copies of all paperwork. Ask the seller for copies of prior registrations, original bill of sale (his, when he bought it) and any other relevant document. Washington is a title state. They will ask for proof of ownership. You will have to pay state sales tax on it. The Canadian HIN is valid in the US. The US and Canada have a mutual recognition agreement (MRA) on standards for recreational boats, and that includes HINs. Shouldn't be an issue in Washington because people here buy boats in Canada all the time.

As for customs, when you bring the boat in, they will ask you to check in, check your papers, and say have a good day. You might have to fill out a customs form, (I can't remember the form number) if there is an issue with the boat itself, but you have 90 days to correct it, with no penalty. But I can't imagine what wouldn't conform because Canadian boats are built to the same standards as US boats. For that matter 80% of boats built in Canada are sold in the US and 80% of the boats sold in Canada are built in the US. This back and forth happens daily. No big deal.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dunno about Canada, but when we, as US citizens, bought an Aussie registered vessel, it had to be deregistered before I could buy it. Non-citizens are not allowed to own registered ships in many countries.

Jim

That's right, generally one has to be a citizen of the country one wants to register the vessel in.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I can understand the PO not wanting to allow a redundant registration in their name, of a boat they no longer own, to remain.

That's right, makes sense because national ships registration is a proof of ownership, at least in Australia.

[LargeMarge]

My procedure on fees, taxes, charges, ratings, and money changing hands:

* If I'm buying, seller pays.
* If I'm selling, buyer pays.
* If I'm buyer and seller, broker pays.
* If I'm dealing with TheGovernmentAgents, I'm in a different location.

[33trippindaisy]

Because when they are done with you, you will be "Broke"..........I would say LOL about now, except I'm not laughing. You see the truth is there are no Brokers that will be 100% honest to the Buyer at a level of 100% of the time. They simply do not represent you, and thats the way it works. They might say they do, but legally they do not. Tell all prospective Brokers you are dealing with that you will be bringing in your own Broker as a Buyer's Agent, which cuts their pay in half before the negotiation even starts. Then if they balk at that (and they will) tell them you will place an offer of 50% of the asking price, but only secured after the boat passes an in water and out of water Survey paid for by the seller, and even then require the seller to fix all items noted as deficient in the Survey, or to reduce the price accordingly. Then attach a firm $1000.00 fully refundable deposit in lieau of any Earnest Money, to be submitted only after all the above, and a visual inspection and Sea Trial. NOW you have established a base for Negotiations. Tell the Broker you might well pay a lot more than this but only after these things are complete. Then do your best to force them to Submit the Offer as required by Law. Look only two things can happen.....you establish a negotiation that you the Buyer are in control of, or you have not met up with a Seller ready to sell, nor a Broker who is willing to work........both of which are designed to steal every dollar from you that they can. Do I think this is harsh, well yes I do. But the one thing you have as a Buyer is the Money, and they want it. The question you want answered is "How bad do they want it"........it's going to take you a bit more time, but think like this........any Seller that will not Survey their boat in/out of the water before listing it already knows the boats real condition and they are hiding the truth from you, and the Broker is not giving up anything they may know, period. Thats why today Car/Truck dealers have been forced to provide Carfax Reports, and Warranties on all units sold, and the States Laws protect you from a Lemon by forcing them to take back any used car within three days of purchase. Heck, many Dealers now offer seven days of inspection time for you at no charge.....but they are confident that they are selling a quality unit when your Boat Broker has likely never seen the Boat you are interested in, and if they have, they still are not giving up the truth. How does this sound, ask them for a signed "Letter of Refusal" for your offer. Thats when you will know if you are dealing with an honest, law abiding Brokerage. Honestly you will probably still get a counter offer, even if your Broker hates it. Remember, it's YOUR MONEY! In full disclosure, I have never been a Boat Broker (nor do I want to be), but I have been a Business Development Manager for one of our Nation's largest Automotive Groups, a GM Certified F&I Manager trained in Detroit, and was one of those responsible for the initial Development of the Business model which changed how folks buy new and used cars via the Internet. Trust me they sell alot more units but they are not ripping off folks like the days of old, back when they earned the "sleazy" moniker. Salesmen hated me, customers loved me, and the Dealers had to succumb to a new way of business. I retired at 50 years of age, and I am still surviving, and I owe no one anything, but I am not rich, and never will be........ My point is simple, the plan worked then, it's still working, and it always will. The only point of contention is "who's running this sale"......them or you? Surviving is this World is a deep subject, but this segment is about Boat Buying in one sense and spending your time and money wisely in another. To the Broker's out there, this is a buying method that probably won't set well with you. But it can work, will work, and you will be more profitable in the long run. Can you imagine the Buyer's of the World talking about you as the Best Broker on the planet? Can you imagine having so many request for "You" that your company is forced to hire and assign you an assistant just to help. I think we need to change the Industry and right now is a great time to do it. As Buyer's you just have to smile and make demands! Good Luck in the fight!

[admiralslater]

The hull might be nafta but not the parts , mast, engine etc .

[sailortaylor]

My experience...as such. I was told by the broker to get a U.S. Coast Guard to transfer owner ship... would cost 150 dollars. I looked on line at the Coast Guard site. It took ten mins. The cost 50 dollars. Ten mins to save 100 dollars. I have not had a good experience with several brokers. One did even want to leave his desk because he would have to show the boat during rush hour traffic. Sold my other boat in two weeks saved 10,000 dollars. time is money! What do you have the most of? One broker didn't even know what city the boat was in. If your concerned about closing... get a lawyer you can trust! May be he will drive during traffic hour!

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by sailortaylor

If your concerned about closing... get a lawyer you can trust! May be he will drive during traffic hour!

And not charge for travel time !!! I like this lawyer. Who is he/she ???

[kokajambo]

Update: I've managed to get the boat registered in WA

Originally Posted by Ike

... Actually he will probably have more grief from Washington State (where my boats a registered) than from customs or Canada. DIY it. One thing to make sure you do, keep copies of all paperwork. Ask the seller for copies of prior registrations, original bill of sale (his, when he bought it) and any other relevant document. Washington is a title state. They will ask for proof of ownership.

Ike's prophecy above turned out to be true, local DMV did put up quite a fight. Although I had all of the necessary documents, they couldn't wrap their had around me bringing it in myself, and had to call customs, selling broker/dealer, and the department of revenue to triple-check the requirements and the authenticity of my paperwork.

Now, more details for you DIY nerds.
What they wanted and what I had:

- Notarized Bill Of Sale - original. I used a blank form from uscg website, and filled it with the information about the sailboat.
Can't recommend it, since having a USCG sign on it has confused the hell out of the poor lady at the DMV desk. She was like "So you say boat no documented? But dis say Coast Guard here... Blink. Blink." repeat x5 times in a loop.

- Proof of Ownership (seller's). I had a copy of the Certificate Of Registry from Canada (similar to USCG documentation, but in Canada).
The concept of a different country having their own national boat registration authority was more challenging to explain to the DMV people than I anticipated, but it worked.

- Import Papers. I had a copy of Entry Summary (form 7501) from 2 years ago, when the broker/dealer has imported the boat to the US for sale.
They wanted a fresh one (less than 90 day? or 60? or 30?), and the original one. I had to explain that the boat was imported by the dealer and was stored by them while being for sale, therefore it was exempt from having to be titled until sold. It worked, but probably by pure luck.

- Value Appraisal. They've got a database with approximate values of different models. My boat was custom-built, so they wanted me to hire a surveyor that will sign (yet another) paper that guesstimates its value. Phone call to the Department of Revenue has clarified that the Closing Statement with the paid price, signed by the Seller's Agent/Dealer is good enough.

- Sales/Use tax. Same Closing Statement worked as a proof that I have paid sales tax. They wanted agent's "dealer number" though, which was obtained by giving them a call. After a short talk on the phone with the "dealer" DMV lady was finally convinced that I'm a real person with authentic paperwork.

Another catch here: sales/use tax rate is based on the mooring location, not owner's residency. The boat is currently in a somewhat remote place, so I got away with paying 8.5% instead of 10.1% in Seattle. Looks like nothing stops me from moving it closer (except 1 year waiting list for slips lol).

[kokajambo]

Originally Posted by dlane1181

... The next issue to consider what is your time and effort worth? ... Give feedback on how easy or hard it is if you do it yourself, including how many hours you spent doing it yourself (including the time already invested).

I estimate 4 full workdays worth of effort on my side, including 25 hours of research/homework and 7 hours of legwork between two visits to the DMV and some document printing/signing.

Monetary savings ended up at $500 (750 quoted by the doc service minus 236 I paid directly at the DMV). If I was paid hourly, it would've translated into $1500 total loss (4 days times $500 loss of wages after tax minus ~$500 saved). It's unlikely that I will be able to break even in my lifetime (I'd need to buy 3-5 more boats lol).

In this case DIY was NOT worth it for me, and by a good margin. I guess I should learn from this lesson, but knowing myself, I probably won't.
Your mileage may vary.

[john61ct]

The wise man learns from someone else’s mistakes, the smart man learns from his own, and then there's you 8-)

[Ike]

Another catch here: sales/use tax rate is based on the mooring location, not owner's residency. The boat is currently in a somewhat remote place, so I got away with paying 8.5% instead of 10.1% in Seattle. Looks like nothing stops me from moving it closer (except 1 year waiting list for slips lol).

Sales tax in Washington is variable. There is a base state sales tax of 6.50%. The cities and counties are allowed to add on to that their own sales tax. In Seattle that means you pay 10.1 (might also be a added transportation tax in there) . But where I live in Thurston county it is 9.3, In other areas you may have no local sales tax. If I moved about 15 miles west to Yelm it would be 7.9%. Or if I lived in Port Townsend (a much better choice) it would be 9.0%

Glad to hear you got it straightened out. I have had my own dealings with Washington's DMV. I built a boat in 2008. A twelve foot rowboat. But since at the time I was a registered boat builder with the US Coast Guard I had my own manufacturers ID Code and put my own HIN on the boat, with every intent to sell it and build more. Didn't work out. So when I went to register it I had my own HIN, and my own Manufacturers Certificate of origin. That threw them for a loop. They even checked with the Coast Guard to see if I really was a boat builder. Of course the person they talked to was my former boss. And I had to quote the law to the DMV (which I had been administering for over 20 years, but they didn't want to hear it from me)

And of course then they wanted all the receipts for materials, which as a business I did not pay sales tax on. You'd think I committed a crime. And to top it all off, If I had rated it for no engine instead of two HP, I wouldn't have had to register it at all.

I won't even go into what happened when I registered the Sea Ray I restored from a derelict.