Modern Headsail Inventory for Coastal Cruisers

[brownoarsman]

I was wondering if the advent of flying sail furlers (sails with an internal luff-stay around which they can be furled) and socks had influenced any coastal cruisers/weekend warriors to change their headsail inventory vs. what would have been common 10-20 years ago? I used a flying sail furler a little while ago on a Mahe in steep Gulf Stream waves, and was amazed at how easy it was to set up and take down, with both operations being done in less than a couple of minutes, vs. a somewhat more onerous process with my bagged asymmetric. Socks similarly make the raising/striking process fairly easy.

I think the typical plastic classic, and probably most coastal cruising boats bought out of charter, carry a 120-140 genoa on a headstay-mounted structural foil furler, and use this as their primary (and possibly only) sail in pretty much all conditions. I know I did, and Morgan's Cloud has a pretty good article about the drawbacks:
- fully rolled out, they're heavier than light winds call for
- reefed in, they're baggy, high-up, inefficient, with weight and windage aloft

I would also add that furling systems cause sailors to leave their furled sails on in between sails, giving CFers the many gratuitous violence videos following major storms where genoas left on boats unfurl, rip themselves up, and/or damage the rig. I had to deal with this last year, when my furled genoa untucked, splintered my tiller and did a fair job on my rudder through the genoa-induced yaw, and then beat itself up. It was hard enough to deal with on my mooring, I'd hate to have it happen while sailing.

Which brings me to my question, is the ideal coastal cruising/weekend warrior sail inventory now a 130-140 flying sail furler (and maybe another bigger sail), and then a 90-100 hank-on jib stored in a turtle bag at the base of the forestay, with a small stormsail in reserve? You get 90% of the benefits of ease of deployment of traditional structural furlers, without the temptation to leave heavy genoas furled around your forestay in between use. While I could always take the genoa down before and after every sail, I honestly know anybody who does this, as big, heavy furling genoas are a pain to put up and down. If the wind was strong enough that I had to furl the genoa, I don't want to unfurl it fully in order to strike it at the end of the sail! Similarly, I don't know what the wind will be like the next time I go out, and if it's strong, I don't want to have to unbag the genoa and have it flogging about all over the place in a heavy wind as I put it back on the furler to start sailing.

Are there any gaps in this sail inventory or other drawbacks that would affect a coastal cruiser? I may be thinking of a 'next boat', so would love to hear thoughts!

[kimtrang]

I can't contribute to the conversation, except to say that my boat came with a newish 120% slab reefing genoa, that the previous owner installed after removing the existing roller furler.

The boat has been on the hard since I bought it an eternity ago, so I haven't even sailed it yet. I've never used hanked headsails before, so it will be a steep learning curve as a single hander. I haven't been able to find anything on the web about slab reeling headsails.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'd like to help, but you've succeeded in melting my f'ing brain, via the misuse & abuse of technical terms. Which in this case makes a big, big difference.

A structural furler, & a furler with a foil are two completely different animals. With the former, the sail is permanently left on the furler, & is either fully rolled up, or fully unfurled. With the latter, there's a luff groove (or two) for the sail(s), & you can (in theory) fly anywhere from 1-100% of the sail, & any size in between.

This is a structural furler -->Structural furler_fiber
This is a roller furler (with a hard foil) --> Manual reefing systems

I'll take a shot at fielding the original questions after a bottle of midol, & a few beers That plus a lay-speak to sailor translator.


PS: There are 1,001 things which play into optimizing a sailplan, & sail inventory for a particular boat. And yes, the two items are different.
But some things to consider, & also tell us are;
- Crew size & talent level
- Crew agility, & energy level
- Budget
- Prevailing wind conditions in your region
- Sailing style(s). Including how agressively you sail, & at what point you turn on the engine.
- Boat type, & how she handles on various points of sail, in various wind strengths
- What wind ranges (speeds), & angles you want your sail inventory to best cover.
- Sprit or no. Including the possibility of adding one for certain types of sails.
- Ditto the above regarding specialty furlers. For Code 0's, kites, staysails & other sail types. Each of which needs something of a different type of furler, optimally.
- Storage space below for sails & their accessories


And know that you're not just talking about sail cost when the term budget comes up. As the costs of the accessory items can at times equal or exceed that of the sails. Between furlers, anti-torsion cables, socks/snuffers, sheets, sheet blocks & extra winches, mounting points, sprits, new halyards, 2:1 halyards & or tack purchases, etc...

[brownoarsman]

At least one person then removed an older rolling furler unit!

I have never heard of a slab reefing Genoa either. The concept seems odd ... Do you know who made the sail? Could reach out to the loft ...

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I'd like to help, but you've succeeded in melting my f'ing brain, via the misuse & abuse of technical terms. Which in this case make a big, big difference.

Don't blame me, blame West Marine! I was actually trying to figure out what to call all this darn technology before writing the post. West Marine defines a structural foil furler as: "The oldest and most common type, so-called structural furlers control your jib or genoa, and are installed over your boat’s headstay. Usually, a single furling line rolls the sail onto the headfoil extrusion mounted over the headstay wire. You can either furl your sail completely, or partially reef it to reduce area." I mean, if they guys selling it to you are confused, what hope do I have?

But, to your point, foil-based roller furlers (aluminum extrusions fitted over the headstay with one to two slots for the sail luff, that can be used with anywhere from 1% to 100% of the sail) are what I have now, and what I think may possibly be outdated.

Flying sail furlers (West Marine's term) would be more like what you refer to as a structural furler, where you can use 0% or 100% of the sail, but nothing in between, and the stay is in no way a structural component of the rigging. For the one I used, we furled it, and while lowering it, folded it over on itself twice so that we could slide a bag on it, then put it away. These are the ones I think can get you pretty much all the benefits of traditional roller furling, with none of the downsides. Edit: Evans referred to these as a zero-type furler in another thread I just read.

Would definitely value your opinion as I know you've done your fair share of sail selection!

[SailingFan]

My Hunter came with a headsail and a main, but I don't know the dimensions of the headsail offhand. I think it may be a genoa, but I cannot swear to it. I have yet to hank it on, in fact. I don't have a furler so cannot even comment there.

As I have mentioned in other threads, my intention is to add to this inventory by cruising ads for used sails and grabbing them here and there in alternative sizes, when they are cheap enough, and are of sizes that differ enough to be materially useful as storm sails and alternatives for the current headsail. I don't know how that will go, and I may end up with some odd items in inventory, but that is the plan right now. I cannot pay 700 plus dollars per sail for new sails right now. I may be able to come up with 50 bucks per sail, though!

I am also having a few other ideas in my damaged head, specifically some alternative desires when it comes to hanks for locking that headsail on the wire. I currently have these little D shaped shackles. I don't like them because I have already launched a couple to Davy Jones by accident when I picked the boat up, and they are a pain to install, while I also cannot be sure the pins will stay screwed in. Further, I cannot imagine using them at night or in cold rainy situations. Numb fingers and those shackles are not going to mix.

I need to know from someone (anyone) what is better to use to hank the headsail onto the forestay with (mine again is a wire forestay).

Another think I am considering is adding an additional stay on a removable sprit, or perhaps a stay that utilizes the same stem mount but connects to the mast at a lower location than the head fitting. Maybe just below the steaming lights or someplace between the lights and the top fitting, not sure just yet. Not technically a solent rig, I don't believe, as I would not be installing a fitting further aft on the foredeck (there is precious little there as it is on a Hunter 27), but I am thinking that there could be instances when having a couple smaller sails up there could be superior to having a single one. I know for sure I want more halyards available on the mast, fore and aft! I will have the mast down this month I think (I hope) to confirm what is supposed to be there, but as the running rigging is not installed at the moment, I don't know what hardware is currently installed.

The mast is a Schaefer, and looks original to the rest of the vessel, if anyone has ideas of what is likely on the masthead already and wishes to share. I am not currently at the drydock so don't have my binocs (or the mast at which to gaze) handy to check.

I don't think my input would apply to what people here may call "modern" because my boat is a 1978, but for those of us with thinner wallets, and who are salvaging what we can from the plastic classic days to bring our boats back alive, it is "modern" so...??

[UNCIVILIZED]

To make things more interesting, there are easily a dozen other types of furlers out there for various headsails. To even include furlers with foils that you sew slugs onto the jib's luff & insert the slugs into the foil. Much like you do with mainsails. Look up Kiwi Slides. And there are furlers for headstays which allow you to use hank on jibs with them. Plus loads of other types. And funin' aside, I'm not the clearest on what you want in terms of a sail inventory, for what sort of sailing, & in what conditions. Ergo some of my questions.

Plus, to further melt your brain, check out the Facnor (& other) furler websites, which show all sorts of furler types. Facnor - Furler system, gennaker & code 0 furlers, facslide
And if you're not clear on what a particular furler type is, or what sort of sail works best for X, give us as much detail as you can, & we'll try & assist.

[kimtrang]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

At least one person then removed an older rolling furler unit!

I have never heard of a slab reefing Genoa either. The concept seems odd ... Do you know who made the sail? Could reach out to the loft ...

Just looked though reams of documentation, but couldn't find the loft's previously sighted sailplan.

It was a smaller San Diego sailmaker. The previous owner contacted the major lofts without getting any response to his enquiries, so gave the job to a small one man outfit. He was very happy with the service and finished sails. This is the sailbag for it (with the old spare main in it) the headsail has a sunbrella bag for storage at the bottom of the head stay. I'll post back when I find the sailmakers details

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Plus, to further melt your brain, check out the Facnor (& other) furler websites, which show all sorts of furler types. Facnor - Furler system, gennaker & code 0 furlers, facslide

Good lord, that is a dizzying array of furling systems. I had not realised how many choices there were. Maybe like anchors, and for simplicity, we should refer to roller-furling, and new generation furling!

Upon not-so-sober reflection, since it is, after all, 8 PM on the East Coast, I think my question really boils down to this: is a roller-furling genoa, furled to the size of a 60% jib, so dogged by inefficiency, that a 40% hank-on jib would be roughly equivalent?

My situation is this: I'm now sailing on the Chesapeake, where light air is the norm, so light air sails are required. I use a bagged asymmetric that is raised inside the headstay rather than on a sprit (because I don't have a sprit and also wouldn't really want one because I don't like having to bother with getting the sail through the slot when turning through the wind). I'm often too lazy to use the asymmetric because I single-hand and it's in a bag, so I end up using the 130 genoa from the furler, no question, it's nice to have and it's already there. However, I often go out in heavier winds as well, in which I use the same genoa, now furled, on a Haarken Mk1 roller-furler. After having the genoa come untucked on the roller-furler and causing a bit of damage, I consider it somewhat of a liability these days, but don't want to deal with putting it on and taking it off everytime, because, for someone mostly just doing two-hour sails, you might as well have hank-on at that point.

If I could replace that sail inventory with a 'new generation' furling light wind sail that I could raise furled, and then unfurl, and then put away by simply furling and lowering it to the deck and unsnapping all associated hardware, I feel I would use the light wind sail more. I could set it up from the mooring and have everything ready to go from the cockpit, and drop it back at the mooring too. Barring summer storms, changing wind strength to the point requiring sail changes isn't really a problem where I live, and the Chesapeake rivers are sheltered enough that working at the bow is a walk in the park. If I'm more consistently using my light-air sail because it's easier to deploy, I probably don't need the roller-furled 130 genoa, and could get rid of a system I don't like and think is somewhat dangerous, in preference for hank-on sails. I like small (30' or less boats) though, so don't want a bunch of hank-on sail inventory taking up space. If I could keep a 90 to 100 hank-on jib in a turtle bag on the headstay, that's easy enough to deploy. If it's a heavy wind day, I could bring out a 40% and hank that on above the 100 on a pennant. One potential downfall of this system is that that might be too big of a gap between the 40 and the 100. But that brings me to my question, is a baggy furled genoa on a roller furler really any better?

[UNCIVILIZED]

A common rig anymore is 3'ish headsails.
- Code 0 or Spinnaker on a short sprit, or extended anchor roller. Even if the tack is but 1' in front of your headstay. Usually with a furler or snuffer/sock.
- Genoa/Jib on a roller furler. Often something like a 125%
- Solent Jib (70-80%), or Staysail on an inner forestay. Often a detachable stay.
And needs be, you can swap out the Solent or Staysail for an even smaller Storm Jib/Staysail, flown on the same stay.

Inner forestays are quite easy to add, & can even be synthetic. Usually meaning Spectra (Dux @ www.ColligoMarine.com ). Or traditional wire.

Spinnakers or Code 0's don't need to be gybed in between the headstay & their luff, it's often easier to gybe them around the outside of the luff. That, furl them, or pull down the sock/snuffer first, then gybe, & unfurl them on the other side.
But guys on 35' boats can do outside gybes solo quite easily with a bit of practice. And experts do it solo on far bigger boats; with & without furling/a spinnaker sock.

Do a bit of searching on here, & online, & you'll find loads of info with which to self-educate. On sails, as well as rigging them, & rigging in general. Then armed with that it gets easier to ask more targeted questions.

Here's a couple of sources:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...y_11824-1.html

Oh, & by the time you roll a jib down to 60% on a furler, it's lost the vast majority of it's drive, if not all. Particularly for any work to windward. My rule of thumb is that by the time you've rolled a jib up by 25-30% of it's original area, it's shape is toast. Well unless you're reaching/running. And even then you're taking a lot of life out of it by flying it in high winds. Flogging it a lot, or both.

Also, knock on wood, if you properly furl a jib, it shouldn't come loose, nor give you any trouble until & unless winds reach storm force or greater. It comes down to how tightly it's wrapped, having kept tension on it with the sheet & furling line while furling it, & in putting multiple wraps of the sheets onto it once the sail is fully furled around the headstay.

Obviously if you know that a storm is enroute it's wise to take a jib off of the furler & stow it below. But then again, if it's going to be a severe storm, the same is true of removing the main & stowing it.


EDIT: Slab reefing jibs (& staysails) used to be the norm, especially prior to the advent of reliable roller furling. I can't say as to how tough it is for the sailmaker to give the sail a good shape both when it's reefed & not, but the concept is more than proven.
I could explain the shape theory as I understand it, but it'd take more typing than I'm up for.


brownoarsman: Here's a thread which I started that might be of some help to you. It to some degree covers how to build a versatile sail wardrobe/inventory/quiver. I'd forgotten about it until a moment ago http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...st-188659.html

[SailingFan]

I may have found something...:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/con...e-headsail-rig

Does this seem right?

[brownoarsman]

Thanks for the additional links RE: solent stays. I have read of them before but not used them. They seem like more of a way to supplement your roller furling than replace it though.

Reading through the sail inventory thread (don't know how I missed that as it's recent), I was struck by how standard the 135 Genoa on a roller furler is. Also from reading through that thread and the common inventory, it doesn't seem like I would face any issues having a code zero type sail AND a 130 on new generation furlers, and then a 100 and a smaller one as hank-ons to the headstay, eliminating roller furling. I understand roller furler issues (Genoa untucking, furling line snapping, storm happening) are somewhat preventable, but I don't think anyone would argue that they are exceptionally rare failure modes that one shouldn't worry about. Foil-based roller furling just strikes me now as a somewhat outdated technology.

From observation, despite the potential for limitless reefing of a roller furler, it seems like most cruisers I have sailed with have four modes for a 130 genoa: 130, 100, 70, furled. That may not be using it to maximum advantage, but does seem to make it replaceable.

All of this is, for now, a bit of a thought experiment as I should be closing on the sale of my current boat this Saturday, and it will be a while before I get a new one (going backpacking through the southern hemisphere for a while). Thanks for your thoughts and advice.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

I may have found something...:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/con...e-headsail-rig

Does this seem right?

Most of what's in that article is technically correct, though I don't agree with all of the author's choices in terms of hardware, sail size, or general setup. And much of the same information is in the linked CF post on Solent Stays which I posted earlier.

[mowerandy]

I have a slab-reefed headsail that used to be a genoa on a foiled furler.

Had a 100mph storm shred my foil furled genoa (was away from home so couldn't make preparations at the marina). The forestay snapped under the furler drum (always wondered how my forestay was doing under all that junk - not well it seems - very pleased this happened on the marina and not under sail). The heavy furler drum then smashed out all my portlights down one side, being just the right height!

Furler foil was toast so I ditched it for a standard forestay, repaired the sail and put two slab-reefs in. I had never heard of this before but figured it might work, and indeed it does!

I haven't sailed a very wide range of conditions with it yet, but the sail seems to be quite efficient when reefed.

I also just made a webbing loop for the tack, to allow the reefed bundle to clear the pulpit and fences. Probably not very efficient to let all that air get under it, but I'm still figuring it out at this stage.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by mowerandy

I have a slab-reefed headsail that used to be a genoa on a foiled furler.

Had a 100mph storm shred my foil furled genoa (was away from home so couldn't make preparations at the marina). The forestay snapped under the furler drum (always wondered how my forestay was doing under all that junk - not well it seems - very pleased this happened on the marina and not under sail). The heavy furler drum then smashed out all my portlights down one side, being just the right height!

Furler foil was toast so I ditched it for a standard forestay, repaired the sail and put two slab-reefs in. I had never heard of this before but figured it might work, and indeed it does!

I haven't sailed a very wide range of conditions with it yet, but the sail seems to be quite efficient when reefed.

I also just made a webbing loop for the tack, to allow the reefed bundle to clear the pulpit and fences. Probably not very efficient to let all that air get under it, but I'm still figuring it out at this stage.

Sounds interesting. If you get the time, could you please post some pics of this. To include ones of the sail's shape when beating when the sails is in it's various configurations. Pics taken from the perspective of laying on the deck, while looking up the draft of the sail, just aft of the headstay are great in this regard.

I've seen some reefable sails where at the 1st reef tack cringle, there is a pendant/strop attached to it, such that on just eases the halyard slightly, & clips the end of the strop not on the tack, to the tack fitting on the deck, & then takes the slack out of the halyard. Along with reattaching the sheets to the new clew. And then you can bundle up the reefed portion of the sail.

One of the perks being that a setup akin to this gets the sail up off of the deck so that it doesn't catch waves. Which, if you're reefed down is sometimes a concern.