Titanium hardware

[deblen]

Anybody have experience/comments on these products?
Thanks / Len


Marine Hardware - Titanium, Great Advantages Over Other Hardware

[GordMay]

Greg Rubin < http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-105960.html? > might have some expert comments.

[Stumble]

Deblen,

As Gord mentioned I worked for a titanium OEM manufacturer and machine shop for a while so I have some input. Do you have and specific questions?

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Deblen,

As Gord mentioned I worked for a titanium OEM manufacturer and machine shop for a while so I have some input. Do you have and specific questions?

Tks for your reply!
I wasn't aware that shackles,thru hulls,etc were even available,let alone at reasonable prices.
Why not use them in place of SS ?
I have read the pro's in their advert, but I would like to know the cons,if any.
Just trying to educate myself I guess.
The only titanium in salt water info I personally am aware of comes from a local ferry captain & fellow sailor. Apparently the ferry engine mfgr. supplied titanium heat exchangers on the vessel's engines & gensets because they don't corrode,at least during the warranty period. However,the piping & vessel are steel & he finds the piping corrodes faster,supposedly because of electrolysis-titanium is further on the galvanic scale?
They probably need more zincs-I don't know.
It made me wonder if using a titanium thru hull or shackle,etc. would result in more corrosion elsewhere.

Cheers/ Len

[Stumble]

Fair enough...

The primary driver of using titanium is that in the marine environment it simply doesn't corrode. Not just in the lifetime of the warranty, but ever. A titanium chainplate is more likely to fail due to an asteroid impact than it is to suffer appreciable corrosion damage over the next 1,000 years.

A secondary driver is strength. Depending on the alloy you use titanium is roughly five times stronger than 316 stainless, so very small parts can handle very large loads. Which actually helps with one of the problems.... Smaller parts are cheaper normally.


There are some real downsides, but these are more engineering issues that showstoppers.

1) titanium is at the very top of the galvanic chart (just below carbon fiber) so it wet applications it needs to be isolated from most metals. Properly designed it isn't an issue, and it's really only a concern like in your friends case when submerged. But we made a number of titanium prop shafts without any issue, we just also used lots of loctite.

2) cost. This is becoming less of an issue these days as titanium prices have fallen off a cliff in the last 15 years. In some cases now titanium may actually be cheaper than stainless or good quality bronze.

3) galling. Like stainless titanium galls, but it's even worse than stainless. So for applications with a lot of thread movement it's a poor choice. Particularly Ti-Ti contact should be avoided. Ti turnbuckles have proven pretty effective, but a bolt that needs to be undone every hour wouldn't.


For your friend I would suggest swapping out to Ti piping, or just adding a rubber gasket between the Ti and steel. One is a permanent fix he will never have issues with. The other should last decades. But adding more zink's would also work.

The real reason we don't see more titanium in the market is because of inertia. No one buys it in quantities so manufacturing prices are high. Because prices are high no one orders it in quantities. It really is a chicken and egg problem.

Personally I have been slowely swapping out stainless bits for Ti bits for years now as things wear out, and love knowing I simply don't have to worry about that part anymore.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Fair enough...

The primary driver of using titanium is that in the marine environment it simply doesn't corrode. Not just in the lifetime of the warranty, but ever. A titanium chainplate is more likely to fail due to an asteroid impact than it is to suffer appreciable corrosion damage over the next 1,000 years.

A secondary driver is strength. Depending on the alloy you use titanium is roughly five times stronger than 316 stainless, so very small parts can handle very large loads. Which actually helps with one of the problems.... Smaller parts are cheaper normally.


There are some real downsides, but these are more engineering issues that showstoppers.

1) titanium is at the very top of the galvanic chart (just below carbon fiber) so it wet applications it needs to be isolated from most metals. Properly designed it isn't an issue, and it's really only a concern like in your friends case when submerged. But we made a number of titanium prop shafts without any issue, we just also used lots of loctite.

2) cost. This is becoming less of an issue these days as titanium prices have fallen off a cliff in the last 15 years. In some cases now titanium may actually be cheaper than stainless or good quality bronze.

3) galling. Like stainless titanium galls, but it's even worse than stainless. So for applications with a lot of thread movement it's a poor choice. Particularly Ti-Ti contact should be avoided. Ti turnbuckles have proven pretty effective, but a bolt that needs to be undone every hour wouldn't.


For your friend I would suggest swapping out to Ti piping, or just adding a rubber gasket between the Ti and steel. One is a permanent fix he will never have issues with. The other should last decades. But adding more zink's would also work.

The real reason we don't see more titanium in the market is because of inertia. No one buys it in quantities so manufacturing prices are high. Because prices are high no one orders it in quantities. It really is a chicken and egg problem.

Personally I have been slowely swapping out stainless bits for Ti bits for years now as things wear out, and love knowing I simply don't have to worry about that part anymore.

Thanks for the excellent info.

From con # 1 I should avoid using a titanium shackle to join my galvanized or SS anchor to my galv. or SS chain ? or are they not in the water long enough to worry?

A Ti thru hull with bronze or SS seacock? or bronze/SS ball valve?

Generally OK to use Ti mixed with other marine metals on deck or in rigging?

Thanks/ Len

[sanibel sailor]

I have never used in aboard, but...

It is very difficult to work or machine. You can pretty much forget about drilling a hole in titanium with ordinary tools found aboard. I have killed a few drill bits in my garage drill press just trying to do something that should be easy.

It is also very light, so replacement of bits aloft particularly can be beneficial. It is however "notch-sensitive", so a scratch/nick is a more significant stress riser and can result in initiation of a crack more readily than in say bronze or stainless.

[UNCIVILIZED]

For some onboard applications, it definitely makes sense. Like for chainplates. As the cost to make them out of Titanium vs. Stainless are close enough not to matter. But you'll never have to worry about crevice corrosion again.

For other things, like shackles. You're better off with DIY Spectra, soft shackles. They cost pennies to make, & have a great lifespan. In addition to being lighter to boot.

Regarding the though hull barbs. I, personally, wouldn't go that route. As the Titanium mushroom, & the Bronze seacock, are just too far apart on the galvanic table.
I would, however, be more than a little interested, to try out a few of those hose clamps.

Titanium used to have a high "coolness factor" a few decades back, especially in the racing crowd. As it's so much lighter than stainless. But with the advent of modern cordage, it's not such a trick (or lighter) item anymore.

[Stumble]

Len,

I wouldn't use a titanium shackles for anchor chain unless you are also using titanium chain. There is no advantage to having a shackle substantially stronger than the chain it's attached to. Just use a shackle rated for the chain you have.

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

I have never used in aboard, but...

It is very difficult to work or machine. You can pretty much forget about drilling a hole in titanium with ordinary tools found aboard. I have killed a few drill bits in my garage drill press just trying to do something that should be easy.

It is also very light, so replacement of bits aloft particularly can be beneficial. It is however "notch-sensitive", so a scratch/nick is a more significant stress riser and can result in initiation of a crack more readily than in say bronze or stainless.

The worry about drilling it simply isn't a real concern anymore. The reputation Ti has for this comes from an era when carbide bits were rare and very expensive. Just use carbide and refined olive oil as a cutting oil (seriously we tested almost everything the more refined olive oil the better). Drill very slowely to prevent hardening, and it drills just fine.


Titanium does exhibit some notch sensitivity, but normal scratched and dings don't raise a real issue.



Btw I would not recommend using a Ti thru hull and a bronze seacock. The galvanic issues are just to difficult to eliminate to be safe and there is no way to add a zinc. The company I worked for was desperate to find someone who would partner with us to make titanium seacocks, but couldn't convince any manufacturer to do so. We tried to get someone to design one for us, but the set up cost was too high without a distributor onboard at the inception. Total cost was going to be about 20% higher than Groco bronze of the same size.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Len,

I wouldn't use a titanium shackles for anchor chain unless you are also using titanium chain. There is no advantage to having a shackle substantially stronger than the chain it's attached to. Just use a shackle rated for the chain you have.





The worry about drilling it simply isn't a real concern anymore. The reputation Ti has for this comes from an era when carbide bits were rare and very expensive. Just use carbide and refined olive oil as a cutting oil (seriously we tested almost everything the more refined olive oil the better). Drill very slowely to prevent hardening, and it drills just fine.


Titanium does exhibit some notch sensitivity, but normal scratched and dings don't raise a real issue.



Btw I would not recommend using a Ti thru hull and a bronze seacock. The galvanic issues are just to difficult to eliminate to be safe and there is no way to add a zinc. The company I worked for was desperate to find someone who would partner with us to make titanium seacocks, but couldn't convince any manufacturer to do so. We tried to get someone to design one for us, but the set up cost was too high without a distributor onboard at the inception. Total cost was going to be about 20% higher than Groco bronze of the same size.

Thanks Sanibel,UNCIVILIZED & Stumble for your comments.

I am forming an impression that Ti has it's uses but also some potential
concerns re use on a boat. Good to know. I was mainly looking at already manufactured items such as shackles,seacocks & other off the shelf items as advertised in the link in my first post.
But it's good to know about it's properties re fabrication also.

I was aware of it's use in auto racing components-dabbled a bit myself many yrs ago.

As Ti marine components begin to hit the market,a person would be well advised to use caution & do some research before using Ti just anywhere?

Cheers/ Len

[Stumble]

I use titanium pretty much everywhere. Except where galvanic corrosion may be an issue. But if my heat exchanger goes bad it's replacement is going to be titanium, with reasonable isolation.

The issues Ti has are really just not that severe in the real world. As an example these are the galvanic number for some metals in question...

Carbon Fiber.------------------ .2
Titanium------------------- 0
316 stainless---------------- -.1
316 stainless (non-passive) -.6
Aluminum------------------- -.9

The rule is that if the difference between two conductors is larger than .2v then you may have an issue. So yes titanium is at the top, and alumnium is at the bottom with a .9v difference, but it that really that much worse than the .8v difference between aluminium and non-passivated stainless? Not really they will both wreck your day, so use loctite when mounting anything to your mast.

Of course these days more and more masts are carbon fiber, where titanium really should be the only option.


My rule is use titanium unless there is a very good reason not too. As Uncivilized mentioned soft shackles are to be prefered over even titanium where they are suitable. I would rather have laminated in carbon chainplates than titanium, but on a refit they aren't an option. Titanium driveshaft? Yes please... But a titanium -bronze skin fittings, good god no, at least not until someone develops a titanium ball valve then I will switch.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I use titanium pretty much everywhere. Except where galvanic corrosion may be an issue. But if my heat exchanger goes bad it's replacement is going to be titanium, with reasonable isolation.

The issues Ti has are really just not that severe in the real world. As an example these are the galvanic number for some metals in question...

Carbon Fiber.------------------ .2
Titanium------------------- 0
316 stainless---------------- -.1
316 stainless (non-passive) -.6
Aluminum------------------- -.9

The rule is that if the difference between two conductors is larger than .2v then you may have an issue. So yes titanium is at the top, and alumnium is at the bottom with a .9v difference, but it that really that much worse than the .8v difference between aluminium and non-passivated stainless? Not really they will both wreck your day, so use loctite when mounting anything to your mast.

Of course these days more and more masts are carbon fiber, where titanium really should be the only option.


My rule is use titanium unless there is a very good reason not too. As Uncivilized mentioned soft shackles are to be prefered over even titanium where they are suitable. I would rather have laminated in carbon chainplates than titanium, but on a refit they aren't an option. Titanium driveshaft? Yes please... But a titanium -bronze skin fittings, good god no, at least not until someone develops a titanium ball valve then I will switch.

Thanks. But you are really familiar with Ti from past work with it and quite a bit of personal use. In other words,you know where Ti is safe &/or practical to use.

I'm a bit concerned that a bunch of it may show up in no-no uses-put there by folks who don't do their home work,because it is "sexy" & now as cheap as SS or good bronze.
Wait til the DZR users in EU/UK get on to it!

I appreciate your time in educating me.
I hope others will learn from this thread.

Cheers/Len

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Stumble

My rule is use titanium unless there is a very good reason not too. As Uncivilized mentioned soft shackles are to be prefered over even titanium where they are suitable. I would rather have laminated in carbon chainplates than titanium, but on a refit they aren't an option. Titanium driveshaft? Yes please... But a titanium -bronze skin fittings, good god no, at least not until someone develops a titanium ball valve then I will switch.

Fair enough based on what you've written. But where to get Ti parts and how to tell if they are well-made? We make distinctions between well made SS parts and cheap junk of the same material. Is it the same in the Ti world?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Fair enough based on what you've written. But where to get Ti parts and how to tell if they are well-made? We make distinctions between well made SS parts and cheap junk of the same material. Is it the same in the Ti world?

Great question... And a very very long winded answer.

First alloy issues...
Generally bad quality stainless fails because it really uses some knock off poor grade alloy. With Ti this isn't an issue, assuming the part actually is titanium, because the cheapest grade is G2 which is a commercially pure unalloyed metal rough equivilant strength wise with 304 stainless. It's actually a little stronger at yield and a little weaker at ultimate, but is a pretty close swap part for part.

The super strong alloy that is more expensive is called G5. Roughly five times the yield of stainless and double the UTS. Finally there is G9 which is basically G5 with less alloying metal to make it weaker. It's weaker because G5 is so strong it's really difficult to bend reasonably. Almost all tubing is either G2 or G9.

If you need to know what alloy get a mill spec sheet. Luckily because titanium is still mostly a commercial metal these are pretty commonly available.

If the part is titanium, and it isn't difficult to tell, for a given size titanium will be about 1/2 the weight of stainless and about twice the weight of aluminium. So how do you tell alloy from alloy? You really can't, there are some minimal density differences you could measure, or get a metallurgical test done, but otherwise you just have to trust the manufacturer (or get a spec sheet).

Luckily though the most common and cheapest alloy is G2 so it's just isn't a concern. Anymore than you need to worry about someone cutting a stearling silver ring with gold is a real concern. G2 is the cheapest, so no funny business with it.


As for production quality...
The only three production methods you are likely to see are cast, forged, or milled parts. Of these only cast parts are likely to have serial problems (as opposed to that specific one is junk). Titanium must be melted in a hard vaccume or it burns and then the casting is also done in a vaccume until the part cools. So long as the mold isn't opened before the metal cools it's pretty difficult to have a real problem.

The problem is that even under a vaccume you can get gas bubbles trapped in the molten metal which leads to point failures in the finished part. This is true for all cast parts, it's just a symptom of the method. The answer is to either test load every single part (expensive) or HIPP all the parts (also expensive).

In the marine world most fittings are cast (shackles, snap shackles, etc) and to my knowledge only Tylaska HIPP's every part (they also load test them all as well).

So if you are already paying for Tylaska shackles then it may be worth taking the steps necessary to ensure the titanium comparison is also HIPPed and load tested but if you are not already doing this, titanium is no more subject to failures than stainless is.

Milled parts start with a billet and everything that isn't the final part is cut away. So long as the part is shape conforming then it is what it says it is.

Machines parts can be tricky... Bending metal can always lead to stress cracking and titanium because of its close delta between the UYS and UTS is far easier to crack than other metals. Generally this is a process thing that a good machinist learns to correct for, but it can be an issue on parts with a lot of tight bends (some weird shaped chainplates for instance). Look for a reasonable warranty period, or load test if you feel the need, I don't.


Specific Vendors...
As for good venders. I worked for Alllied Titanium and still buy their stuff, even without an employee discount, the HIPPed shackles are awsome btw. Other manufacturers... I don't feel comfortable making recomendations but I don't know of any I consider absolute junk either. Most titanium fab shops are outgrowths of the aerospace market where tolerances and inspections are very very tight. Even today a large percentage of titanium goes to either space or spends its whole life flying, so if a Ti shop can't meet tolerances it won't be around for long.

If possible ask to see a public list of customers. Allied for instance sold heavily to Boeing, NASA, Northrup Grummon, and Airbuss. If our parts past their inspections trust me they will pass anything you will put them thru.


One more thing... American Ti production traditionally is the worst quality in the world. With the exception of Allieds shop in WA (Allied just opened this shop a couple of years ago and started by training American machinist to world standards). For decades there were only two manufacturers and they had a government monopoly on production so the quality suffered. As always German production is top shelf, but suprizingly so is Chinese titanium. The Chinese basically decided that Ti production was a military necessity and demand far higher quality for it than consumer goods.

Keepin mind that a massive percentage of Ti production worldwide still goes into either aerospace or the military. So a poor quality Ti fab shop has no chance of making a profit. If you can't sell to 90% of the buyers in the world you won't do well for long.

[deblen]

Some Allied videos on Youtube.
This is one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasiCXvC2gY