CNG Supply Line - Tank to Stove 20'

[colemj]

The OP has a CNG system, not propane. Apparently, there are differences in the requirements.

Mark

[coastalexplorer]

I drive a CNG dual fuel road vehicle. So I agree with sailorchic that the pressure is either 3,000 PSI for older systems, and 3,600 PSI for more modern systems. The difference is in the type of tank you have. and then beyond that what applicable systems are attached to it. The second point is that getting access to a CNG Compressor to fill the tank is a serious challenge around here in British Columbia because the service is so limited, So I am at a loss to understand how you would fill a tank on a boat.

The last point is that force 10 is a local company and I have only talked to them by telephone. I was invited to bring my stove over for service but have not done that yet. however the manager: or perhaps it was the owner was exceptionally friendly and helpful. So I think that perhaps they might be more than just a little bit perturbed if they knew that Defender who ever they are did not help you on their behalf. Not very fair to suggest that they are not helpful.

1515 Broadway St, Port Coquitlam, British Columbia V3C 6M2 CANADA.
1 (778) 285-9900

Perhaps it could be worth a telephone call to get the truth directly from the source?
and pay for it in CND what a currency deal for you right now?

[Moxie 38]

Thank you! I appreciate the phone number for Force10. I am certainly not a vindictive person - just not getting feedback from the people directly involved. Going back a few months ago when I started this search, that was one of the first things I attempted to do - contacting them by email if my memory serves me correctly. But, I do not think I had a phone number available to me at that time.

Again, thank you very much.

[hellosailor]

A question for the folks who are more familiar with metal-braid-covered flexible hoses.
Stainless braid over rubber is fine for clotheswashers and dishwashers installed shoreside with thick rubber hoses that rarely move.


But something similar is also used in high performance car brake lines. Usually Teflon or similar thin tubing, covered by stainless braid, so that the final length of the brake hose (on each wheel) cannot expand under high pressure from hard braking.


Which sounds great, but in practice road aslt and sand and other abrasive grime goes through the braid and then pinholes the inner hose, resulting in leaks and failures. Professionals know to inspect & replace these routinely, but casual users usually don't know this until their brakes fail.


So in the salt air aboard most boats, where salt crystals might condense under the braid and then start abrading the actual gas hose...mightn't it be a good idea to give those braided hoses a thorough fresh-water washing every once in a while, as cheap insurance against damage from salt crystals or other abrasion?

[mlydon]

CorpBrothers in rhode island supplies CNG tanks, fittings, regulators, and the CNG hose you're looking for. They also supply filled tanks for exchange at various resellers including Brewers (at least the one in Mammaroneck NY)

Last exchange cost me $80

I switched from Kero to CNG as my boat didn't have a built-in LPG tank locker, putting in an aftermarket one would have been just ugly, and with a ketch i didn't want to hand a tank over the stern rail. I'd also need a sniffer, relay, etc. going to CNG.

In my opinion, Brass fitting with hose clamps are just FINE. Electrolysis isn't really an issue - we us it in our fuel systems, too, guys.......and what do you think the fittings on LPG regs, tanks, etc are made of? Also, The regulater has a.dump line you send to a vent in case of first-stage failure, and if you DID get a gas release from a catastriphic failure of the regulater, AND the dump hose, it'd just dissipate.

Overall, i feel much better with cng over lpg, safety-wise



Matt

[coastalexplorer]

I pay 86 cents per kilo for Natural gas At Fortis BC. I pay between 1.12 to 1.28 at a gas station during the weekend when they are closed.
One kilo of CNG is equivalent to between 1.516 and 1.682 GLE (Gasoline Liter equivalency) depending on time of year (climatic conditions) and who is doing the calculation.

So is there a typo in that $80 per tank full? Shouldn't it be $8.00 How huge is your tank?

If you own your own home and have natural gas service for house heat and or cooking. You can own your own compressor and fill your own tanks. but true to say the specialized compressors for this are not cheap perhaps only worth if IF you have a road vehicle set up to run on it, and or your marine engine is set up to run on it? before it is affordable for a galley stove?

If that $80 price is correct I am glad I use propane!

[Moxie 38]

Thank you, Matt ( mlydon). Your sentiments on the safety of CNG and the way the regulator is vented overboard in the event of failure is an acho of my own. I have the same set up i my stern locker - just no hose to connect to my stove.

You are the second person to recommend Corp Brothers in Providence, RI. I intend to contact them this week to get price and availability. I appreciate your input and everyone else who contributed here. Case closed guys!

[mlydon]

Coastal - brewers charges $80 for a tank exchange - that's a scuba-sized tank charged to 2500psi or so. Probably 60 or so cubic feet. I have no idea what that would work out to in kilos.

Definitely not cheap, but they're the only game in town - NO ONE does cng fills anywhere near me.

A tank lasts me all season, though, and then some
Matt

[Moxie 38]

Hey! Thank you again. I have the scuba size tank in my stern locker strapped horizontally with the regulator attached. I took it out this summer briefly when I was trying to find the leak, It was ungodly heavy so, for now I am assuming I have a good supply of gas from the previous owner. The hose will be purchased from Corp Brothers, Prov. sometime this winter.

[Island Time O25]

I have an older CNG system in a 35 yr old boat. In New England area exchanges are not a big issue, there are many boatyards doing them. The price is more of an issue. Corp Brothers exchanges smaller size tanks for about $40 and larger ones for about $60. Local re-sellers add about $20-25 on top of that. It was explained to me by both the reseller and Corp people that the difference is a reflection of transportation costs as these are heavy and thus expensive to move and have to be insured through the nose. And the fact that there are not many of the re-sellers does not help either as well as a "marine" label which goes with them.

My boat came with one 27lbs cylinder and one 36lbs. I have also bought 2 add'l empty 36 pounders from a yard sale for $5 each (Corp sells them for $245). I don't liveaboard so even a small cylinder lasts me almost a full season so I get it exchanged locally as it does not makes economic sense to drive 45 miles to RI just for a cylinder or two. However I'm waiting for a reason to go there anyway and then I will exchange the rest and will save big and will be all set for the next few seasons.

And one more thing. Be sure to check the pressure of each cylinder you are getting as it reflects whether it's full or not. That varies considerably. I don't have the experience yet to "feel" by weighing to see if its fully charged but the last time I got one the guy at the yard was nice enough to test them for me (as he felt the first one too light) and we found that one tested at 1500psi (about half full), next one at 1800, then 2200 finally one was 2,500 and the rest kept testing at or just below that number. I expected to get closer to 3000 but he said it is not advisable to do 3000 for safety reasons although the ones I get from Corp always show at least 2,800.

BTW anyone knows if CNG is lost during storage? Does it make sense to stock up for at least 2-3 seasons or the savings may literally evaporate?

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Moxie 38

Hey! Thank you again. I have the scuba size tank in my stern locker strapped horizontally with the regulator attached. I took it out this summer briefly when I was trying to find the leak, It was ungodly heavy so, for now I am assuming I have a good supply of gas from the previous owner. The hose will be purchased from Corp Brothers, Prov. sometime this winter.

It's ungodly heavy even when empty. I know as I dragged those 2 cylinders from a yard/flea market sale to the parking lot and had to carry one at a time. If you can cap it past the regulator you can then check for pressure and see how much gas is left.

[hellosailor]

Moxie-
If you are unfamiliar with CNG...those tanks are often owned by a CNG supplier, which is why they are often swapped out rather than refilled. The tanks are stamped and ID'ed and if a fill station sees it isn't "your" tank...they may swap it out and refuse to fill it.

But if it IS your tank, they also need to be hydrostatically tested every so often (5 years?) and that's an additional cost of ownership, which makes it easier to swap out tanks and let someone else worry about all that.

Just FWIW.

If that's all old news..."Nevermind".

[Moxie 38]

All good advice, fellas. Thanks a lot!

[coastalexplorer]

Granted that all my CNG experience is with my GMC Savana 8 passenger bus, The tanks are very heavy because they are bullet proof, and virtually indestructible because they have to survive a crash. I have been told that the oldest early systems worked at 2,800 PSI. Then that got changed to 3,000 PSI most vehicle aftermarket conversions work at this pressure and the fill nozzle on the compressor pump is colour coded as blue for that. this is the most common connection found at gas stations. Since My system is factory GM it works at 3.600 PSI and the fill nozzle is colour coded Yellow. In British Columbia and Alberta the natural gas supplier is Fortis BC and they supply for both systems, how ever while a blue nozzle will fit anything there is a fail safe to prevent yellow being connected to a low pressure system

The re-test time period for my tanks is every fifteen years. I have been told that the tanks that have an outer layer of fibreglass can be re-tested and that some of the earlier designs were a one use disposable.

This compares with propane where the light weight fibre glass tanks have to be tested every five years and can only be tested three times, while steel propane tanks are to be tested every ten years.

As a result of this thread I telephoned Force ten, and received the following information. They are not licenced gas fitters so they are only certified to build the appliances. and not to supply bottles, regulators or hoses. However their staff member thought you all should research gas availability from
https://tridentpower.com/about-us I called their toll free 1 800 731 7063 but it seemed unreasonable to expect a call back to all the way out here on the west coast so I did not leave my number I will leave that to you and hope this helps?