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capn_billl · 16-06-2011, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater

Incorrect. "The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel."

Unless you have a broken rudder or something equivallent the vessel is under command. A sea anchor would not count unless (this is my interpretation) it was deploied in a serious storm and you could NOT simply cut it loose without great risk. In this case it is a bit like a broken rudder; you can't steer. Any thoughts on this?

No sorry, "Not Under Command", means Not Under Command, the reason for being Not Under Command is irrellevant.

Incapacitated crew, and deployed sea anchor, means the vessel is no longer able to manuver in present state, and should display the required signals, Two all around RED lights in vertical line, two BALLS in vertical line.

zeehag · 16-06-2011, 07:12

with simrad is easy to pull 12 hour shifts at watch with less strenuous work of actual steering and stress of autopilot piling ye up onto something...even with 2 of us, we slept on watch in the cockpit-- for short time periods--was nothing coming nor anything from horizon to horizon. i wouldnt dream of ever leaving my boat unattended/ to herself in a sea of any kind-- weather changes quickly-- doesnt matter what kind of magic you are using to keep her into wind or what--is still a change-- big ships DO come into view and sometimes even very close to ye--is always best to go with someone in cockpit-even dozing-especially if you have any kind of desire to keep your boat intact. ye dont know what is gonna happen .
common sense is what markj i believe is referring to--is most important and without that, we can die. all hands sleeping below defies common sense, to me.

jackdale · 16-06-2011, 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_billl

No sorry, "Not Under Command", means Not Under Command, the reason for being Not Under Command is irrellevant.

Incapacitated crew, and deployed sea anchor, means the vessel is no longer able to manuver in present state, and should display the required signals, Two all around RED lights in vertical line, two BALLS in vertical line.

Thinwater quoted the chapter and verse of the rule. He is correct.

An interpretation.

Quote:

A vessel not under command has usually suffered a disability, which is not easy to predict or classify. An example would be a vessel with a disabled rudder. The navigation light requirement is, therefore, brief and general.

Rule 27

Gracies · 16-06-2011, 07:26

completely agree with pierrrre,
the rules apply to all vessels and therefore by taking the choice to go to sea you should take the choice to sail by the rules and in particular to keep watch, of course sailing solo is a different game, but luckily for us the COLREGS do allow for common sense, and therefore if you are in the middle of the atlantic and decide to heave to to sleep for a few minutes then i see no reason why not!
However just because your a cruising sailor does not mean that you can stand on to a 300,000DWT VLCC whilst asleep to a sea anchor,

and what cruising sailor has N.U.C lights any way??? and according to Rule 3 i would not interpret having a sleep as being N.U.C! Heave to leaving your Nav Lights on and take a kip instead

Gracies · 16-06-2011, 07:47

The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

´´exceptional circumstance´´, means exceptional and therefore the reason for being Not Under Command is completely relevant and in fact the most important factor in deciding whether or not you are in fact Not Under Command!!

cal40john · 16-06-2011, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_billl

No sorry, "Not Under Command", means Not Under Command, the reason for being Not Under Command is irrellevant.

Incapacitated crew, and deployed sea anchor, means the vessel is no longer able to manuver in present state, and should display the required signals, Two all around RED lights in vertical line, two BALLS in vertical line.

Saying that we were tired and needed a nap is not going to qualify as an exceptional circumstance.

There's what people do, and there's the law. I let everyone sleep when we hove to in the middle of the Pacific to let a hurricane go by. I expected to be found at fault legally for not keeping a watch if there was a collision.

From NavRules Rule 3:
(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term [Int] "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall [Int] include but not be limited to:

1. A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
2. A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
3. A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
4. A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
5. A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
6. A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

zeehag · 16-06-2011, 08:02

do believe that those who swear by sea anchors in any rest situation are sitting at a desk and not out cruising--if out cruising, they would realize how much fun it is to pull the damthing back onto the boat and to dry it and stow it to sail again. is much easier to actually SAIL the boat 24 hours than to mess around with things to make ye stop forward progress for a night of sleep--is easier to find an anchorage in which to get a decent night's sleep--just takes preplanning.
as forhurrycames--we get a week of advance notice for those---sometimes is difficult to avoid em---no one would fault anyone for heaving to for those,in the event your boat actually makes it thru it....but with a week's notice, is easier to find a hole in which to hide or cold water to sail until it dissipates or heads west.

capn_billl · 16-06-2011, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracies

completely agree with pierrrre,
the rules apply to all vessels and therefore by taking the choice to go to sea you should take the choice to sail by the rules and in particular to keep watch, of course sailing solo is a different game, but luckily for us the COLREGS do allow for common sense, and therefore if you are in the middle of the atlantic and decide to heave to to sleep for a few minutes then i see no reason why not!
However just because your a cruising sailor does not mean that you can stand on to a 300,000DWT VLCC whilst asleep to a sea anchor,

and what cruising sailor has N.U.C lights any way??? and according to Rule 3 i would not interpret having a sleep as being N.U.C! Heave to leaving your Nav Lights on and take a kip instead

You are correct the rules do apply to all vessels. If you are no longer able to maneuver, or maintain watch you are required to display the appropriate signals. Not Under Command should not be confused with RAM usually reserved for larger work vessels.

Heaving to instead of deploying a sea anchor is a captains decision based on ships, and crews ability, and sea conditions. I'm not even going to try to second guess that decision, only to point out that if a sea anchor is deployed the boat is at a relative stop, and rudder is ineffective. In this state you will be unable to take any immediate steps to avoid a collision.

In any collision situation the expectation is that a moving ship will take any steps to avoid a stationary object.

capn_billl · 16-06-2011, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracies

However just because your a cruising sailor does not mean that you can stand on to a 300,000DWT VLCC whilst asleep to a sea anchor,

No is doesn't, but what it does mean is that as soon as your radar, or AIS alarms, you will be frantically rousing the crew, calling the oncoming ship on VHF, starting the engine, and trying desperately to the the "damthing" back aboard so you can get out of the way before it flattens you, likely unsuccessfully.

As several have stated deploying a sea anchor during a storm, the danger of a collision is the same in a hurricane, or dead calm. In a dead calm you have a better chance of pulling the sea anchor and getting under way.

How about to use your example of a RAM, a fishing boat pulling in nets mid ocean? No one will be at the helm, and the engines will be stopped. Note in this example a collision actually happened off of the Texas coast and both vessels sank, so maybe a bad example.

jackdale · 16-06-2011, 08:34

If you are sailing vessel under way with a sea anchor deployed, you are still stand-on to any power driven vessel (other than fishing, RAM or NUC). You do not need to pretend you are NUC, which applies to the vessel being disabled, not the crew.

capn_billl · 16-06-2011, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackdale

Thinwater quoted the chapter and verse of the rule. He is correct.

An interpretation.

Thinwater quoted the chapter and verse of the rule. He is correct.

An interpretation.

Quote:
A vessel not under command has "usually" suffered a disability, which is not easy to predict or classify. An example would be a vessel with a disabled rudder. The navigation light requirement is, therefore, brief and general.

Rule 27

A crew disabled from a storm is a disability. If sufficient crew was on board to keep a watch we would not be having this conversation.

My preference is to designate one person for short 10 mins nap relying on the Radar for early warning, until the rest of the crew recovers. As a japanese fishing boat that was sunk by collision with a sub can attest this does not always work.