Sailing Terms That Seem Backwards and Confusing

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Illogical to you maybe

Seems perfectly right to me. Current doesn't have an origin. North wind comes from Boreas, of course As every sailor since Odysseus knows

Finally!
You and I practice opposite definitions of "illogical".
My work here is done.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by cyan

Well, of course you are technically correct, Factor.
-BUT-
The "lazy", incorrect version will have the exact same meaning to almost all people as the correct version, even though logically the sentences are opposite.

In actual fact, the "lazy" version grates incredibly every time a non-American hears or sees it misused.

[Seabeau]

Some of our problems in sailing phrasing and terminology lie in the tool most of us use in everyday life, the English language. English with its roots not so firmly based in a half a dozen earlier languages is extremely difficult to learn because of its multifaceted background, but is also highly adaptable for the same reason. Terms change in English because the English language speaker forces it. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so does English .

[Jim Cate]

Cyan, not to seem unappreciative,but this seems like exploitation of a non-problem... for what end I dunno. Sailing, like many endeavors, has its own language (jargon, not jardon), and learning it is part of acquiring the skills required to practice the "trade". If you queried any doctor, they'd likely tell you about the hours spent learning the unique language of their biz, and i can tell you that physics shares that burden. It is part of life and mastering the nuances of an activity or profession.

Your concern about inconsistencies and contradictions in the terms seems wasted effort to me. Thousands upon thousands of folks master the lingo, mostly without great grief or pain, and then practice their sailing despite the horror of linguistic inconsistencies. I have no interest in changing the language to make life different, perhaps easier, for neophytes. Soon enough they'll master the extant speech and carry on with their sailing... just like we all did. The fear expressed by a few upthread of disasters stimulated by misuse of terms is pretty far fetched... possibly examples of the unskilled leading the unready, a scenario not necessarily dependent upon self contradictory terms but rather of folks in over their heads at sea.

Oh well... have a good thread, even if I think it is silly.

Jim

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Ropes and sheets are not the same thing.

"Rope" is specific type of cordage (bigger than small stuff, smaller than cable) or a piece of that type of cordage used for something unspecified.

"Sheet" is a piece of cordage at work doing something quite specific, namely holding a clew. The word comes from old word for clew, and exists in many languages ("Schot" in German, as in "Mast und Schotbruch"). Is only coincidentally spelled the same way as bedsheets and sheets of paper; has nothing to do with this and different etymology.

This is a very important distinction, and this terminology has considerable meaning.

Give us a situation where that distinction would cause a problem if misused?

I can see using left/right vs port/starboard could cause a problem...helmsman is turned around watching something off the stern and you tell them to turn to the left, he might not turn to port since technically that's his right...though even that is unlikely as you don't tell someone to turn a vehicle in relation to the person but in relation to the vehicle but I will admit it's within the possibility.

but Rope vs Sheet...I can't see a situation where that would cause confusion. If I point to the mainsheet and say "pull in that rope"...are you seriously going to go over to the lazzerette and dig around to find a piece of rope so you can pull on a "rope"?

Yes, on technicality you would be correct to look around for a "rope" but in practice it just isn't going to happen. In the days of the old square riggers when there dozens of ropes leading all over the place, it was far more important but in the modern world, this is mostly an anachronism.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cyan

Ah, but currents take you places. Winds take you places.
A North wind takes me South.
A South current takes me South.
Again, this is illogical, Greek Gods notwithstanding.

It's basically an abbreviated way to say the wind direction.

"Wind out of the North" becomes "North Wind"

When you don't abbreviate, it makes perfect sense.

Likewise, you could say a "current heading North" and there would be no confusion between wind and current.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Here's another sailing thing that, as far as I know, is still mandatory in the navy.

When the captain, officer of the deck or whoever gives a command the crewmember addressed will repeat the command back. Seems nit picky but it insures that the command given was heard and understood correctly.

That's not a sailing thing.

I use that all the time, especially at work. At the end of a meeting, you recap what was agreed to and who is doing what.

Often I will send an email detailing what we just discussed. It's a great back check and if it later comes out you weren't in agreement, I have written documentation of what was discussed and proof you had the opportunity to correct me if I was wrong.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

That's not 'Just' a sailing thing.

Oh yes it is - on a well run ship - .... if I say to the watch ' steer 050'.... I expect them to repeat it back to me.... otherwise how do I know they heard me....?

And its not just 2 legged... it should be 3 legged...

'Steer 050'

'Steer 050'

' yep 050'

Edit....Oops.... what you say is 100% correct... I think a 'just ' was missing somewhere...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Saltiest term I use is "Avast Matey.. where's the Grog..??"

'Avast' as in 'stop' is right out of the sailors' book of words these days....

Back when Noah was a deck boy it was often used in the form .. 'vast heaving ... ie stop! .

Too many winch drivers wound too many sailors into warping drums having thought someone had said 'fast heaving'......

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Oh yes it is - on a well run ship - .... if I say to the watch ' steer 050'.... I expect them to repeat it back to me.... otherwise how do I know they heard me....?

And its not just 2 legged... it should be 3 legged...

'Steer 050'

'Steer 050'

' yep 050'

Edit....Oops.... what you say is 100% correct... I think a 'just ' was missing somewhere...

Never said navies don't do it

But I've seen it used in many non-nautical scenarios. Adding "just" is OK but the original comment was perfectly correct.

[Seabeau]

Its called "Three Way Communication". Most military do it and many industries. Mine did.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Its called "Three Way Communication". Most military do it and many industries. Mine did.

Exactly... I do it on my wee 'ship'.... especially when I don't have eye to eye contact...

[CatNewBee]

Why is in USA (and some other American countries, Japan, Korea, Philippines) red buy on the right (starboard) and green on the left (port) while in the Rest of the World red is on the left (port) and green on the right (starboard) when coming from sea?

Isn't it confusing somehow?

(b.t.w. same for political parties - while the Left Wing is almost everywhere RED and conservatives are BLUE, in USA the conservative GOP is red and the Democrats are blue - very confusing).

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Why is in USA (and some other American countries, Japan, Korea, Philippines) red buy on the right (starboard) and green on the left (port) while in the Rest of the World red is on the left (port) and green on the right (starboard) when coming from sea?

Isn't it confusing somehow?

Lmao.. Dunno how Japan and Korea will like being called 'American Countries'.. I know it pisses off Phillipino's..
As to why ass backwards.. figure it was a childish gesture of starting a new world order.. anti Imperialism..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Give us a situation where that distinction would cause a problem if misused?

I can see using left/right vs port/starboard could cause a problem...helmsman is turned around watching something off the stern and you tell them to turn to the left, he might not turn to port since technically that's his right...though even that is unlikely as you don't tell someone to turn a vehicle in relation to the person but in relation to the vehicle but I will admit it's within the possibility.

but Rope vs Sheet...I can't see a situation where that would cause confusion. If I point to the mainsheet and say "pull in that rope"...are you seriously going to go over to the lazzerette and dig around to find a piece of rope so you can pull on a "rope"?

Yes, on technicality you would be correct to look around for a "rope" but in practice it just isn't going to happen. In the days of the old square riggers when there dozens of ropes leading all over the place, it was far more important but in the modern world, this is mostly an anachronism.

Why do you think it's an "anachronism"? "Sheet" is simply more specific -- the term conveys useful information. If you were to eliminate the specific terms sheet, halyard, rode, outhaul, guy, control line, etc etc etc etc and just call everything a "rope" or a "line", can you imagine how hard it would be to discuss sailing the boat? "That there rope". "No, the other one." "No, below that". Etc.

It would be as if a mechanic were to eschew the specific words "wrench" "screwdriver" "hammer" "pliers" "drill" etc etc etc and start just saying "that tool over there". How in the world would that improve communication? Sure they're all "tools", but a wrench and a screwdriver have different functions and it can be very useful to be able to name them specifically. Same with our "ropes".