Sailing Terms That Seem Backwards and Confusing

[cyan]

In a thread about heaving to, the contradicting phrases "helm hard to lee" and "helm hard to windward" were used to describe the same thing.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-199182.html
A discussion of terminology ensued and some members described this as "silly" indicating that we all should simply know what is meant. (Hi Jim and Dale!)

I strongly disagree with that. I think sailors use terms for years that other sailors use, but they really don't make sense to the newbie. Have you ever tried to teach a child how to sail? If so, you might get some "silly" questions...

Wind vectors (wind arrows) on a map have a speed and direction. However these arrows point in the OPPOSITE way as the arrow on an active wind vane. When the wind moves air to the West, we call it an "Easterlie" or an "East Wind"... because it comes FROM the East. When a boat moves to the West, we call it Westing, or a Westerly departure... becuase it moves TO the West. Backwards, I tell you.

In mathematics/physics this conflict is just unacceptable. In sailing, we have an egocentric frame of reference for words, but an absolute frame of reference for some chart symbols, which are OPPOSITE from the words. (as in wind vectors) Everything is from the perspective of the sailor. Fair enough, but mixing frames of reference is a problem for the math and a problem for the 10 year old trying to learn why we use these conflicting terms.

I contend that we can use (conventional) conflicting terms for so long that we don't even realize the conflict any more. This is not at all silly to a new sailor.
What other terms are counter-intuitive or conflicting?

[Don C L]

The "helm's alee" thing is only confusing to those who learned to sail with a wheel IMO. For those folks it's probably better to yell "turn into the wind!" and if you are racing be sure to pepper it with an abundance of nautical, colorful expletives.

[daletournier]

Hi Cyan, always like your posts and more than happy with you disagreeing.

My problem wasn't actually with the use of sailing terms but more so with those that hook their identity to the proper use of such terms and other salty stuff and need to correct others (constantly) due to some ridiculous self importance (this does not apply to all that commented).

People are entitled to run their boats anyway they see fit, mostly my crew aren't sailors therefore the correct terms mean nothing to them. Very rarely do I use the exact correct terminology and I've managed to do OK so far.

I think it was Boaties post that was first corrected in the previous thread, I understood very easily what he meant and I'm pretty sure others did as well yet one particular poster had to be anal over it which resulted in derailed the thread.

All though I live aboard full time, cruise full time and have an Rya yachtmaster piece of paper (which is a waste of money and time) I don't get hooked up on needing to be seen as a sailor, I use the words that work for me on my boat. I'm not in a Partick O Brien novel.

Most of the people I meet out here doing it aren't full on sailors although they are crossing oceans, they don't see themselves that way. They do and say what ever is nessacary to get the job done.

[Suijin]

It certainly is important to have a common lexicon that everyone (hopefully) understands. That said, a tremendous number of nautical terms have histories dating back hundreds of years. The idea that it's possible to change them at this point is rather optimistic in my opinion.

In racing a number of other, plainer terms have emerged for the sake of clarity. For example "Prepare to tack...." then "Helm down" or "Helm over". Perhaps those will filter into the general sailing community, but I would not count on it.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Suijin

It certainly is important to have a common lexicon that everyone (hopefully) understands. That said, a tremendous number of nautical terms have histories dating back hundreds of years. The idea that it's possible to change them at this point is rather optimistic in my opinion.

In racing a number of other, plainer terms have emerged for the sake of clarity. For example "Prepare to tack...." then "Helm down" or "Helm over". Perhaps those will filter into the general sailing community, but I would not count on it.

I ask sincerely, do they need to filter down in to cruising? we aren't racing and there's no exam to pass.

[Fence Man]

How did a rope come to be a sheet, when there are parts of the system that actually resemble a sheet?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by cyan

...
In mathematics/physics this conflict is just unacceptable....

Oh really? Bet I can list a dozen.

cath·ode
ˈkaTHˌōd/
noun
noun: cathode; plural noun: cathodes

1. the negatively charged electrode by which electrons enter an electrical device.
   • the positively charged electrode of an electrical device, such as a primary cell, that supplies current.
   
   
   
   

[CharlzO]

Originally Posted by Fence Man

How did a rope come to be a sheet, when there are parts of the system that actually resemble a sheet?

My guess would be in the old days, maybe some sails were basically sheets, so when someone said to "sheet in", they were referring to pulling the rope tied to that "sheet" and it evolved? no clue, really.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by CharlzO

My guess would be in the old days, maybe some sails were basically sheets, so when someone said to "sheet in", they were referring to pulling the rope tied to that "sheet" and it evolved? no clue, really.

Google it if you want to know.

Etymology[edit]. "Sheet" derives from Old English "scéata" meaning the lower corner of a sail.

[boatman61]

A sheet or sceata in Anglo saxon was at first a sail or the lower part of a sail at least& indeed this sheet has the same source as a bed sheet
The rope that controls a sail was known in those days as a sheet line or sceatline but.. by the early 14th century sheet lines began to lose their lines & became just sheets..
Later sails stopped being called sheets & began to be called sails likely to distinguish them from their sheets.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by cyan

...

I contend that we can use (conventional) conflicting terms for so long that we don't even realize the conflict any more. This is not at all silly to a new sailor....

Each vocation and avocation has a lexicon that has developed over, sometimes, hundreds of years. Those practicing in such vocations or aspiring to do so need to learn the lexicon, whether they happen to like it or not or they will not understand what is happening or said to them, nor be understood by others in or practicing such vocations/avocations when they speak. Words/terms used in sailing or on the water, boating or aboard ship, have specific meanings particular to that vocation./avocation and environment. Accordingly, regardless of one's "opinions", it behooves one to learn the appropriate language, no?

[John_Trusty]

Originally Posted by boatman61

A sheet or sceata in Anglo saxon was ....

What a cunning linguist!

I think that technical terms are great time- and confusion-savers, particularly when you work on a variety of boats. "Pull that blue line" doesn't cut it when you're sailing on the friends boat where the genoa sheets are white. Unfortunately, like all technical terms, they can be used to exclude outsiders and make sailing more complicated than it has to be. I'll bet Boaty, or some of you others, could confuse me with some of the salty terms - "barberhauler", for god's sake!

[cyan]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Cyan, always like your posts and more than happy with you disagreeing.

My problem wasn't actually with the use of sailing terms but more so with those that hook their identity to the proper use of such terms and other salty stuff and need to correct others (constantly) due to some ridiculous self importance (this does not apply to all that commented).

People are entitled to run their boats anyway they see fit, mostly my crew aren't sailors therefore the correct terms mean nothing to them. Very rarely do I use the exact correct terminology and I've managed to do OK so far.

I think it was Boaties post that was first corrected in the previous thread, I understood very easily what he meant and I'm pretty sure others did as well yet one particular poster had to be anal over it which resulted in derailed the thread.

All though I live aboard full time, cruise full time and have an Rya yachtmaster piece of paper (which is a waste of money and time) I don't get hooked up on needing to be seen as a sailor, I use the words that work for me on my boat. I'm not in a Partick O Brien novel.

Most of the people I meet out here doing it aren't full on sailors although they are crossing oceans, they don't see themselves that way. They do and say what ever is nessacary to get the job done.

I completely agree with this. If the term is understood, then it works. We don't need to waste time on trivial discussions, but we should be aware that our assumptions might not be the same as the next person.

Modern English is full of phrases that make no sense, logically.
I think we can all agree that the following two logically OPPOSITE sentences mean the IDENTICAL thing:
"I couldn't care less about Cyan's pedantic semantics."
"I could care less about Cyan's pedantic semantics."

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by John_Trusty

What a cunning linguist!

I think that technical terms are great time- and confusion-savers, particularly when you work on a variety of boats. "Pull that blue line" doesn't cut it when you're sailing on the friends boat where the genoa sheets are white. Unfortunately, like all technical terms, they can be used to exclude outsiders and make sailing more complicated than it has to be. I'll bet Boaty, or some of you others, could confuse me with some of the salty terms - "barberhauler", for god's sake!

Not me.. credit goes to a real cunning linguist.. Google.. or in my case Microsoft Edge is your friend.
Saltiest term I use is "Avast Matey.. where's the Grog..??"

[cyan]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Oh really? Bet I can list a dozen.

cath·ode
ˈkaTHˌōd/
noun
noun: cathode; plural noun: cathodes

1. the negatively charged electrode by which electrons enter an electrical device.
   • the positively charged electrode of an electrical device, such as a primary cell, that supplies current

Hi thinwater,
This word might be confusing, but it does NOT ruin the math like sailing "vectors". In fact, the confusion here exists BECAUSE the math must be consistent in physics. To keep the math consistent, so that we can all write circuit diagrams that agree, we refer to the cathode's polarity differently depending on the behavior of it's device. (a source or a sink)
Next, please? <insert annoying smug emoticon here>