MOB and Motors Question

[Healer52]

Apparently you misunderstood my advocacy for dinghy practice: I was not suggesting that people launch a dinghy to recover a MOB, but to practice the various techniques in a small boat. And sailing practice in a small boat is good, imho, for those whos seamanship skills are not as broad.

Launching a small boat to recover a MOB is only a practical option IF you have enough crew (>6?) and conditions are favorable. Of course if conditions are favorable enough, odds are you won't have much trouble recovering the MOB once you get up alongside him.

[goboatingnow]

Hopefully, the MOB is wearing a life preserver with whistle and light, and the water isn't so cold the MOB is still functional at least after 10 to 15 minutes in the water. If alone on deck, the person should have a line connecting him/her to the boat.

The whistles virtually useless, (a) cold shock makes it very difficult to use ( I know) and the light not much use in the daytime. The main problem is actually in medium conditions in sunshine in the day as few crew wear harnesses then , but in cold water, which is where I sail often, after 20 minutes , you are incapable of assisting your own rescue.

Its all horses for courses as they say, chartering once in the carribean many moons ago, my wife asked for harnesses, the reply "mam, its a pleasure to fall overboard in these waters"....

[Bash]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

is that a serious comment. You never use a preventor

the last time I used a preventor, and this was years ago, was in super-light air and heavy swells during a race where the waves were causing jibes because the wind wasn't strong enough to overcome the roll of the boat. But yes, I consider a preventor to be something akin to training wheels.

(Actually, I sometimes rig a preventor at anchor in the late afternoon to keep the boom's shadow off the solar panels, but I'm guessing that's not what you're asking about.)

[goboatingnow]

Apparently you misunderstood my advocacy for dinghy practice: I was not suggesting that people launch a dinghy to recover a MOB, but to practice the various techniques in a small boat. And sailing practice in a small boat is good, imho, for those whos seamanship skills are not as broad.

yes and no, in my experience, dinghy sailers ( like lasers etc) dont neccessary make good cruising sailers, nor does it work the other way around. Equally while theres a basic theorectical link between how you sail any boat , you really need to actually practice on the boat you sail , what ever that is. In my experience dinghy sailors completely miss the interia, speed of pickup, steering efficiencies of larger boats.

Better to learn on the boat you have .

[goboatingnow]

But yes, I consider a preventor to be something akin to training wheels.

interesting , I do a lot of out of season deliveries in some of the more nastier seas around our planet, I always rig one, anythime i'm running deep in any seas, particulary on autopilot. I had a badly damaged boom as a result many years ago of a lack of a preventor. Standard practice for me.

Dave

[Bash]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I dont think anyone is advocating not having the skills to do an MOB recovery under sail, merely arguing that if you have a functioning engine its a better bet.

read back a few dozen posts, and you'll find forum members arguing that the figure-8 maneuver is "completely useless."

my point is this: for an experienced, practiced sailor, the figure-8 maneuver is a far quicker, more reliable option than turning on the engine and dropping the sails. In all situations other than super-light air or running downwind under spinnaker, I will recover the victim more quickly under sail than the drop-the-engine-and-turn-on-the-motor advocate will.

[Astrid]

you mean drop the sails and turn on the engine?

[cal40john]

I forget which article Rousmaniere had this tidbit in. He found that in one year of the U.S. Coast Guard accident statistics every MOB recovery that was attempted under power by a sailboat resulted with the victim dead. IIRC every one wrapped a line in the prop. I think we have to assume at least some of those people knew to check for lines before putting the boat in gear, so that means that in the heat of the moment they either forgot or missed a line, or one went overboard during maneuvers. If you're in the use the motor for MOB camp, double and triple check for lines in the water.

John

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Bash

... I will recover the victim more quickly under sail than the drop-the-engine-and-turn-on-the-motor advocate will.

Something I could have said with my super-dyslexia.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by cal40john

I forget which article Rousmaniere had this tidbit in. He found that in one year of the U.S. Coast Guard accident statistics every MOB recovery that was attempted under power by a sailboat resulted with the victim dead.
John

That doesn't pass the "nose test." Statistics lie, particularly if incomplete data is compiled.

If those statistics mean sailors shouldn't use their motors to rescue their mates, I suppose motorboats needn't make an effort in rescuing their MOBs as that would be a waste of effort.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by markpierce

That doesn't pass the "nose test." Statistics lie, particularly if incomplete data is compiled.

If those statistics mean sailors shouldn't use their motors to rescue their mates, I suppose motorboats needn't make an effort in rescuing their MOBs as that would be a waste of effort.

Why did you take my message out of context and only quote part of it? I did not say do not use your motor. I said make absolutely certain that you're not going to foul your prop.

Also I specified sailboats. How many powerboaters do you know that start getting out lines and flailing them about their boat the moment a MOB happens.

Do you happen to be a reporter for a tabloid?

John

[markpierce]

John, I was responding to the statistic you cited. Nothing personal.

[ConradG]

Well, at least everyone (so far) agrees getting the boat to the mob is the important thing!

Conditions, crew and other variables seem to weigh in, but it also seems clear that there what really matters is what will work for a particular induvidual with the boat they are in and their skill and comfort level.

How best to stay close to the mob? How to get to them quickest? Engine on or not? When in the process to devote the time to getting the engine on if used? Leave the sails up or drop them? It seems that the best way to gain confidence, figure out what works best for the particular induvidual and their boat in differing conditions would clearly be to learn and practice different methods in as many different conditions as possible. It may even bring a comfort level that will decrease the panic factor. Nothing like continuing training for producing real world results.

Evans, if you want to learn to weld and find the time, I'd be happy to get you started Not exactly next door but possibly close enough? pm me if you'd like.

Conrad

[Jimbo2010]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Secondly the boats very difficult to tack single handed, the sheet winches are not easy reached from the helm, yes it can be done, but at a risk to the headsail.
.

The sail? I'm I reading this right who cares about the sail cut um loose.

You put the sail above life

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

is that a serious comment. You never use a preventor

Training wheels is a good analogy, yes.

Sailing 38 years and racing never used one.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Bash

In a heartbeat. My wife, who I consider "co-owner" rather than "crew," could get all 15 tons of my boat back to me far more quickly than you could drop the sails.
.

Hmmm . . . what sort of sail handling do you have - hank-on head sails and no lazy jacks? It takes us about 5 seconds to roll up our 105 working head sail and another 5 seconds to drop the main into the lazy jacks (if the wind is forward of the beam).

Originally Posted by Bash

Not to brag, but my wife is far too good a sailor to need to use a preventor.

Hmmm again I don't understand what being a good sailor has to do with this. We use a preventer to stabilize the boom in swell, we use one quite a lot offshore - our logs says we have 10kts or under of apparent wind 30% of the time.

Originally Posted by cal40john

I forget which article Rousmaniere had this tidbit in. . . .

Actually I have been chatting with John R the past week about this and he is a strong motor supporter. This topic came up because I am on the US Sailing safety at sea committee (as is John R) and we are re-writing a few parts of the quick stop procedure. I commented that I thought we were vastly under estimating the value of the engine, and a debate ensued much like this thread. I had thought the debate was because most of the committee were racers, and that cruisers would be more uniformly on the side of the engine, but I guess this is simply one where there are lots of different opinions and different boats and different situations.