Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

It isn't cost, I said AIS is not for rescue, don't buy it for rescue.

Right. SAR aircraft have AIS because they are afraid to collide with ships.

Do you know what AIS-SART means? It means that your statement is wrong. These are now being sold; my neighbor here has two personal AIS-SARTS aboard to wear as MOB alert and locator.

[JRM]

Originally Posted by frank_f

I'm asking this because I don't understand how a SAR is accomplished.

The question I have is if the government is capable of facial recognition of a subject on a non-descrip hillside in Afghanistan from 200 miles up, how can they not find a sailboat in a 200 mile diameter circle?

Short answer: They can't. In the somewhat distant past at university I studied rocks and made maps, so I've spent a fair bit of time looking at imagery. That stuff you're talking about is all done with drones, and fairly low flying ones. Things in orbit look down. Hard to do facial recognition on tops of heads. The atmosphere is physically limiting. Sure, there are adaptive optics, lasers, and other such gimmicks, but in the end, the physics of atmospheric particles limit resolution from space. Those drones also aren't searching hundreds of square miles of empty space. They're targeting known paths of travel and then based on human gathered intelligence.

Originally Posted by frank_f

Before anybody crucifies me for asking this, I not on a fault finding mission nor am I on the "Dammit, I'm a taxpayer. I pay for these people to look after my butt." bandwagon. I'm just trying to get a handle on what resources are called into play in these situations.

Even if you assume you're going to bring the entire resources of the USCG for the Florida district into play (and I have no real idea how they break it down except for google), I'd guess you're probably going to get a handful of planes (from a listed four air stations), maybe a half dozen helos, and less than a hundred boats (45 cutters listed plus 18 stations with smaller craft). That's not a lot. And it's spread out. I think it's remarkable the job those folks do with the resources they have. No reason to crucify anyone. Unless you are familiar with U.S. public safety (I happen to be thusly employed) the odds are slim that you really understand how thinly these services are staffed.

I had never heard of Jay before these threads, so I can only offer condolences from afar for those who knew him. But the effort expended on his behalf by his friends demonstrates to me the kind of man and friend he was.

JRM

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Irrational to have AIS mandatory?

As rational as banning recreational boating.

Opps can't do that, upset too many people - Ahh... I know, just ban offshore boating. Not too many to be inconvenienced, save bucket loads of cash by winding back SAR requirements and no crazy yotties will die.

Why p*ss around making you add stuff that might or might not work out as planned, just keep 'em off the oceans altogether - much easier and cheaper.

[goboatingnow]

"With respect to using AIS safety related text messages in emergency
situations, users must be aware that they may not be received, recognized or acted upon as Global
Maritime Distress Safety Systems (GMDSS) messages would be by the Coast Guard, other competent
authorities or maritime first responders. Thus AIS must not be relied upon as the primary means for
broadcasting distress or urgent communications"

That is because the USCG is about 10 years behind the rest of the world in AIS ( and DSC)

AIS SART are now a recognised distress signal under GMDSS

'The specification (IEC 61097-14 Ed 1.0) for AIS-SART was developed by the IEC's TC80 AIS work group. AIS-SART was added to the GMDSS regulations effective January 1, 2010"

please nimble do your research . The USCG isnt right about everything and its implementations of AIS and DSC and GMDSS are very slow and poorly implemented.

( for refernece, the largest, most modern, technical and highly integrated system in the world is the new Chinese installation)

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MarkJ
Irrational to have AIS mandatory?

.

Why , AIS is a cheap technology , I see no reason why it shouldn't be mandatory especially for say all boats over 7m. ( given in the EU it has now extended down to trawlers over 15m, that position cant be that far away)

IN the US , its being considered as a security issue

dave

[Snore]

Deleted by me as it did not add to thread

[boatman61]

I can see AIS has use's... hell yes..
EG; When I was bringing my Corribee 21 down from the UK I got stalled in the Southern Approaches by a SW 6-7 which, combined with tides stopped me getting round Ushant.. so was tacking back and forth for nearly 3 days waiting for the change to the W...
Anyway... every ebb the sea's would build more and by the second night I was bobbing round in 4-5m sea's.. around midnight I saw a ship heading straight for me so I called him up... scared the life out of him... I was not on his Radar... because of the sea's I was just another odd blip in a mass of crap.. he finally saw my lights about 500metres from me... but only coz he was 'Looking'...
An AIS would have shown me up straight away.. if he had one as well... don't think they were yet mandatory for commerce 3yrs back..
However... I also have seen a rising over reliance and faith in instruments by folk which is in my view nearly as dangerous and just another thing to further dull the already feeble sense's many seem to have...
Also.... were not 2 WW's fought to preserve the rights of freedom and choice...
I'll lay you 1000/1 if I said that income over 50K a year should be taxed at a mandatory 90% and the money spent on Health, Pensions and Social Security the 'I sail with Everything' and everyone else should be made to conform would be the 1st and loudest to scream....
But Guy's.... think of the lives saved and suffering that could be eliminated...
Beware the 'Expert/Guru' who presses hard his beliefs on you...
he's usually got an ulterior motive...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why , AIS is a cheap technology , I see no reason why it shouldn't be mandatory especially for say all boats over 7m. ( given in the EU it has now extended down to trawlers over 15m, that position cant be that far away)

IN the US , its being considered as a security issue

dave

Just because it is cheap isn't a rational reason for mandating it - and I question the "cheap" aspect; consider the case of an sailing boat without power (admittedly unusual), the addition of electricity and its generation starts to add up!

More importantly, before mandating equipment, the question should be "why", not "why not".

[hpeer]

If there is a reason to make AIA mandatory it would be for collision avoidance with even smaller vessels. Around Newfoundland fishermen will sometimes lay hove to or hang on there gear overnight. They all say they have a watch, but many boats are but two or three crew. Then I come along, stupidly solo sailing, at night, on passage, and there is an issue. I might not see another boat for three days, but when I do half the time I'll gave to change course to miss him. When asked why he didn't have AIS on guy said "I don't want me mates to know where I am at, or me wife."

But even when mandated there are problems. Foe example, last year I'm sailing ( motoring) up to St Pierre off the south coast of Newfoundland. There has been a report of a flare so the Canadian CG has a search going using a helo and a cutter. I'm crossing the pattern. A front is coming through so its getting right nasty. Right about then a bunch of big fast sailboats start busting out of the fog, spinnakers flying, just screaming along. They all have AIS, but I can't pick them up over a mile out. Turns out these guys are a big French Trans Atlantic race just departing from St Pierre. I've been told they have AIS because it is mandated, but they stick the antennas in the bilge.

The cutter didn't know about the race and was calling on VHF trying to figure out what the hell was going on. The one or two who answered gave idiotic responses in heavily accented, unintelligible English. The cutter assumed it was a local event and wanted to know their next leg. I finally jumped in and said I thought they were TransAtlantic and were just passing through.

Frankly, the whole thing pissed me off.

Then crossing the Bay of Fundy one night I was hailed by the Canadian Coast Guard, by name. They had their AIS set to recieve only, or didn't have a transponder.

[capngeo]

As I said before, electronics are no substitute for good seamanship and a well maintained boat. I've sailed over 40 years without it and still seem to make it to where I am going. I'd be pissed beyond all pissivity (for my Brit friends: the angry pissed, not the drunken one) if I were forced to carry something I didn't want.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Just because it is cheap isn't a rational reason for mandating it - and I question the "cheap" aspect; consider the case of an sailing boat without power (admittedly unusual), the addition of electricity and its generation starts to add up!

More importantly, before mandating equipment, the question should be "why", not "why not".

Exactly.... +A1
Educate us by all means... sing its praises to the heavens and sooner or later it will become as standard as the most basic GPS is on boats today... in just 20yrs... and that's a BIG STEP in safety that had no need to be mandated.. Commerce grabbed it for the added safe navigation value and it quickly spread to the leisure sector
But some of us out here are not natural conformers.. we were 'Black Sheep' as kids and likely ain't changed much over the years
We'll get there... sooner or later... but we do object to things rammed down our throats and to being potentially 'Criminalised' before our time...

[s/v Jedi]

So, what are current rules? When I still sailed in Europe, not even a VHF was mandatory. I would be surprised if it is now, but I understand that down under they have an EPIRB requirement? I am against mandatory electronics for reasons as stated by others; but I would not be against SAR only going out for those who assist them with locators.

We have come to assist or even rescue countless boats over the years: none of it could have been prevented by electronics because that does not compensate for lack of seamanship. The trouble is that we, on occation, even put ourselves in danger to help/rescue others that just did not belong there. This is what SAR personell does all the time, because it is (almost) always the same group of inexperienced noobs that require help. The least they can do is make it easier to be helped and shut up if that costs a little money; better if they stay on dirt.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, what are current rules? When I still sailed in Europe, not even a VHF was mandatory. I would be surprised if it is now, but I understand that down under they have an EPIRB requirement? I am against mandatory electronics for reasons as stated by others; but I would not be against SAR only going out for those who assist them with locators.........

As a generalisation, you must carry an EPIRB if you are 2nm offshore - there are some minor variations in some states but this is the gist of the regs. Note, a PLB does not satisfy the regulations.

I like your other points

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

... but I would not be against SAR only going out for those who assist them with locators.

...it is (almost) always the same group of inexperienced noobs that require help. The least they can do is make it easier to be helped and shut up if that costs a little money; better if they stay on dirt.

That puts the choice issue right where it belongs.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, what are current rules? When I still sailed in Europe, not even a VHF was mandatory. I would be surprised if it is now, but I understand that down under they have an EPIRB requirement? I am against mandatory electronics for reasons as stated by others; but I would not be against SAR only going out for those who assist them with locators.

We have come to assist or even rescue countless boats over the years: none of it could have been prevented by electronics because that does not compensate for lack of seamanship. The trouble is that we, on occation, even put ourselves in danger to help/rescue others that just did not belong there. This is what SAR personnel does all the time, because it is (almost) always the same group of inexperienced noobs that require help. The least they can do is make it easier to be helped and shut up if that costs a little money; better if they stay on dirt.

Definitions...
Inexperienced Noob... someone trying to become an experienced wrinkly... we had idiots in my time to... but there was no internet back then and Jay's tragedy would have passed un-noticed... hell often an event 50 miles down the coast would only get a couple of paragraphs in the local rag...
But today its different... something that happens half a world away takes on earth shattering proportions/consequences for the rest of the world.
I remember when there was a dread that France would force life rafts on every vessel... even Optimists... yup.. that's the EU for you
VHF is a SAR tool... if folk know how to use it... and your in range of the coast stations
Australia is a case on its own IMO... the vast distances of nothing between area's to start and also the fact the majority of resources are voluntary and 8am - 6pm in the main... they have yet to reach the funding, equipment and expertise that has taken the RNLI 100yrs to achieve...
As to saving ass's... AIS/EPIRBS don't affect/reduce the danger of the rescue...
I carry VHF because its an essential tool.. like my GPS/CP has become (still use paper)..
EPIRB... hmmm.. rather spend the money on paint.. rigging.. sails, repairs... the things that save one from having to use an EPIRB.
Mind... if I sink the only way any folks will know is when there's no Posts by me for more than 2 months..
Unless its a delivery and the owner starts screaming about his boat...
And with that I walk away from this Thread...