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Old 02-06-2013, 19:48   #241
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Um... Yeah. This is a bit like, "I'll fasten my seatbelt only when I expect to have an accident."

"I'll put on my helmet when I think I might crash."

"I'll keep my PFD handy and put it on when I think I'm about to fall overboard."

I think it was a comment from someone determined to disparage the idea. That's OK. I'd hate to be surrounded by people who didn't have opinions.

However, it's not how I use it. I use it in open water when I'm by myself. I have it coiled into five sections because the polypro loves to get tangled up on itself -- the first time I tried to use it I just threw the whole thing into the water expecting that it would straighten it out. It didn't.

So I don't use it casually, but I also don't wait until I "think" I might need it.

I release it one section at a time. Experience has taught me how to bundle it up.

It worked for me, but seeing how some think it should be used -- they really shouldn't use it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:04   #242
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames
I think I could get up the ladder. On my blog, I have a story about a man I know who managed to drag himself up an adequately long ladder with a shattered thigh bone that had severed his femoral artery. Fortunately for him, his back pack with his cell phone was in the cockpit. He called 911 and they got to him in time. ..

Wow, how close by were they? A completely severed femoral artery gives you about 30secs before you lose consciousness and about 5mins before death.

Coops."


I cut and pasted the whole exchange so there wouldn't be any confusion.

I'd like to know what you think I should do. I could go back to the man's store, and slap a tepe recorder on the counter, and make him repeat the story again so I can put it up online as an audio file. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

When I grill him, I'll record that, too. Isn't that what the police do?

I'll be sure to ask him how long it took the ambulance to get there, and grill him on that, too, if the answer isn't satisfactory. I'm sure he won't mind. I did get his permission to put his story on my blog, but I'm not sure he bargained for all of this ....

Oh I'll photograph the surgical scar for you, too. It's pretty long. I know they wanted to do the surgery right away -- the whole story is in the blog.

He DID very nearly die, and it's not entirely luck that he survived. He never would have survived if he couldn't have dropped that ladder, probably on the first try, and he never would have made it if it hadn't been long enough. He volunteered all that, but since the story wasn't a part of investigative reporting at the time, I didn't question him.

Actually, a nurse practitioner I told the story to said it isn't terribly uncommon for a piece of bone to cut the femoral artery. She did acknowledge that he was very lucky to be alive.

Oh, yeah ... I'll get the exact date from him, find the crew, and quiz them about how fast they responded.

You know, we ALL saw the films of the bombs that went off during the Boston Marathon. A number of people had injuries worse than this man. They lost whole legs. People put tourniquets on them, and the first aid staff had IV's and son of a gun, only three people died. And I'm pretty sure none of them got to a hospital within five minutes.

So if you'll buy the ticket, I'll go up and grill those people, too.

I think we have a plan!
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:14   #243
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Thats a more likely thing.

The senario I think could fit most facts and is something I can easily imagine happening: If he kept the EPIRB in the cockpit and needs to do work forward he takes the EPIRB with him for safety. So he takes it forward with him to change sails.
In this case he went overboard, couldnt get back aboard; set the EPIRB off; and then either lost the EPIRB accidently or had the difficulty of holding it whilst trying to get back aboard.

The EPIRB didn't save him, but it might have. Sometimes an accident is just too bad to survive. I'm glad his family will have some answers.
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:15   #244
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by mikepmtl View Post
That was back in 1999/2000. I was in Bimini the day before with a few other boats. They were discussing if they were going to stay another day (we had planned to stay another 2 days originally) or not.

After hearing the weather forecast I let them discuss it and lifted anchor to cross an almost swimming pool like Gulf Stream back towards Miami.

It was not hurricane season at all. It was January/February.
It was simply a good old Nor'Easter coming down. Winds were sustained in the 60mph and gusting in the 80's.

But when the winds are coming from the north hit the Gulf Stream coming from the south it can create some extremely difficult situations. Very big sharp waves and so on.

Why were people out there? No idea. I suppose they did not listen to the weather forecast or thought they could handle it, or did not make it to shelter in time.

The morning actually started out very nice, by afternoon winds and waves started picking up significantly. Throughout the night it was not pretty at all.

The hurricane hole (No Name if you know it) was very crowded. There was also this very beautiful Catamaran that they owners left unattended that broke free and was pounding on the wall. We called the coast guard and they came and secured it, but it was still a of of fiberglass damage.

The next afternoon in the bay it was perfect 20 knot winds to finish off my vacation with some fast sailing and dolphins riding our bow waves.

Maybe they just didn't know what a storm like that could do to the Gulf Stream. I haven't seen it first hand but I've heard.
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:18   #245
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Remember the three minute rule? An object moving at one knot will go one nautical mile in one hour. One hour is 20 3 minute intervals. One nm is 2000 yards. So the math says the object will go 100 yards every three minutes which 300 feet in 180 seconds. That is 1 2/3 feet every second or 5 feet every 3 seconds for every knot of speed.

Which is 15 feet every 3 seconds for three knots and 25 feet every 3 seconds for 5 knots.

If you tow a 100 foot line at 5 knots you have 12 seconds to get to that line before it is gone.

Makes more sense to clip onto a jackline than to tow a warp.

Be safe out there.

If you fall off the bow, you only have to go a few strokes to port or starboard to grab it. There's a chance.

Tethers can fail. I like having a backup. You don't have to do it. And, since my line is 150 ft (the length I was told to make it, I have 18 seconds to get to it. I probably can do that if I'm not badly hurt. If I'm badly hurt, in the water and by myself, the odds that I will survive plummet.
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:21   #246
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Take one more person with you..................

cause.....................

This, we gotta see......................

as in................

"You gotta see it to believe it".

But I'm not doing it to convince you personally. As we have talked about it, I'm concerned about how well it will work with a wheel. It worked spectacularly well with a tiller but the boat I have now has a wheel.

I don't think anything would convince some people -- nor is there any need to.

I think you should do what you think is right for you, realize that I have heard what you have to say, and let it be. Whether you can or not is up to you.
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Old 02-06-2013, 20:55   #247
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
...

If you tow a 100 foot line at 5 knots you have 12 seconds to get to that line before it is gone.
The beam of my yacht is 3.6m, so say I end up 2m outside the toerail when I enter the water, I have less than 4m to swim in twelve seconds to get the midline of the wake.

Say ten seconds, to allow for surfacing and orientation (this all might be generous, if I fall off near the bow, because your 'timer' only starts when the transom goes by)

That means 0.4m per second. A bit over a foot.

A second is actually quite a long time to swim that far when the alternative is certain death.

Another way of looking at it: you have to be able to manage a few strokes at an average of 3/4 of a knot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Makes more sense to clip onto a jackline than to tow a warp.
Can anyone spell "false die-cotter-me" ?

I, for one, don't recall signing anything saying I had to pick only one of these options.

I think you must have a pretty low opinion of your fellow CF members if you would assume they would think a tripline was any sort of substitute for tethers and jacklines.

And clearly you haven't read their posts explaining their implementation.

Certainly not mine.

- - - - -

"Be safe out there", to me, implies taking every reasonable precaution.

And making allowances for human and material fallibility.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:08   #248
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Here is an idea, have a radio receiver that stops the boat if it ever picks up a 121.5Mhz signal, which comes from an activated PLB. You go into the water with your PLB, the boat stops or circles around.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:12   #249
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Here is an idea, have a radio receiver that stops the boat if it ever picks up a 121.5Mhz signal, which comes from an activated PLB. You go into the water with your PLB, the boat stops or circles around.
RFID would be an easier set-up.. Program the AP to go to full stb or port lock when the RFID disappears
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:13   #250
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

I stand corrected; the PO of the boat tells me that she would sail on quite a ways with an unattended helm. I urged him to post up here
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:42   #251
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

[QUOTE=Andrew Troup;1250873]The beam of my yacht is 3.6m, so say I end up 2m outside the toerail when I enter the water, I have less than 4m to swim in twelve seconds to get the midline of the wake.

Say ten seconds, to allow for surfacing and orientation (this all might be generous, if I fall off near the bow, because your 'timer' only starts when the transom goes by)

That means 0.4m per second. A bit over a foot.

A second is actually quite a long time to swim that far when the alternative is certain death.

Another way of looking at it: you have to be able to manage a few strokes at an average of 3/4 of a knot."


Actually, the boat glides by you, and THEN the 18 seconds starts. You have 18 seconds to get to the end of *my* drag line according to the statistics given here. You cut the tether (if you had one) and on my 10' wide boat, swim either 2 feet or 7 feet. Remember, it's not trailing dead center -- that would not turn the boat, which is crucial.


I'll say it again. You're speculating and I've tested it (although not on this boat.)

If you're SMART, you were thinking about orientation when you came up. You opened your eyes and saw the boat from under water.

Believe whatever you want, but theory doesn't always match reality -- sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:44   #252
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Here is an idea, have a radio receiver that stops the boat if it ever picks up a 121.5Mhz signal, which comes from an activated PLB. You go into the water with your PLB, the boat stops or circles around.

How does a radio frequency stop a sailing boat?
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:50   #253
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
I stand corrected; the PO of the boat tells me that she would sail on quite a ways with an unattended helm. I urged him to post up here

Sure. It would no longer be destination sailing, but Cuba is pretty much centered south of Florida. the Gulf Stream would have an influence on where she went. She caught the Gulf Stream looping around Florida, but eventually the wind blew her south of the Gulf Stream and on to Cuba.
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:12   #254
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Jay was a soft spoken person. He would only want good things in the world. He would want all sailors and Cruisers to believe in the goodness of the sailing and bring us to gather for peace and helping one another as truly I witnessed Jay here in Key West.

This will improve upon search and recovery efforts and the world will thank Jay!
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:19   #255
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

When the conditions call for it i throw a 100ft line of the sugar scoop (fender if im going slow, i have used if for fun, and if you practice and get your technique correct it is easier to pull our self up at speed, i was scared at first going slowly then faster and faster, but now if you have a rope and you can get to it in time, a hand over hand at 7knots is easy, with your feet strait you can steer your body and only half of your body even drags the water, so less resistance than at 3.5 knots.

I have also clibed the anchor chain and it is very hard! and if you do not practice the chance of pulling yourself up the side is very hard. full vertical lift, side force load from water on your body. if i failed a pull up the on my tether the only option is to cut and go for the rope trailing line to give me access to the sugar scoop.

In my 10,000 miles of sailing now i still think the most dangerous risks i have taken is weeing over the side on night shift half mentally exhausted. slow witted with that wave waiting to catch you off balance. I do have a PLB, strobe, teather and knife on my life jacket but only wear it when i feel the conditions call for it. i always assess the risk that are current and i take my measures for that situation, (i understand current conditions may change fast and render all my safety measures useless).
But its the choices to make your own risk analysis for your quality of life, i believe these should be your own choice! I am not a fan of people legislating what i have to do all the time. I like doing my own risk assessment on the conditions. but for crew, i tell them that they should use all safety measure i am aware off and then implement further of their own to protect there life if they want to live, because complacency of your perfect safety measures (mine even) can be another risk not assessed.

Passing doing something you love is my preferred departure from this world.

All my best wishes to the family and friends
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