Great Lakes, Nautical Terms: "big sea" and others.

[mcsmith1974]

Okay, folks. I'm nearing the final edit of the manuscript. Thanks for the guidance so far. I just have another question pertaining to the annotation of a lee rail (It's purpose to someone that knows nothing about sailing... so that the reader can appreciate the lee rail and the story). The footnote is at the bottom where I need to add the context.


Thanks again!


Mike S

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I didn’t do much sailing that summer until July. The fleet was going to Sodus Point over the fourth. They planned to leave early Saturday afternoon, but I could not get away until after the store closed. Some of the boys were on vacation so I had to work until 9:00 p.m. I had three members of the club for a crew. They had the boat all ready so all I had to do was jump aboard and take off.

I lost no time getting to the clubhouse. We pulled out at 9:30 p.m. with a beautiful south breeze knocking off nine knots an hour with the lee rail[1] under. We carried the breeze until we were abreast of Fair Haven Light twelve miles west of Oswego.
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[1] The lee rail is a rail on the down wind side of the boat. ADD ADDITIONAL SENTENCE HERE ON PURPOSE TO GUIDE THE READER MORE AND GIVE THEM KNOWLEDGE AND APPRECIATION.

[John_Trusty]

This is a common term that we still use today. Basic concept is that the wind is blowing from one side of the boat (windward - or left side of this photo) to the other (leeward - the right side of the photo). As the wind pushes against the sail it 'heels' the boat over on its bottom, a normal movement for a sailboat.


The strength of the wind and the amount of sail set determines the amount of heel. The "lee rail" is the top of the hull on the lee side, and putting it under or burying it in the water indicates that they had the largest amount of sail they could carry in those wind conditions. Experts here can tell you that this is probably not as fast as the boat could have been going, but many of us do it because it feels so good; like you are going very fast. It's like revving the engine of a sports car - perhaps it doesn't contribute to real speed, but it feels impressive. Heeling over that far also tends to scare the passengers that are not used to sailing, but it's completely safe other than the deck is on a weird angle and you need to walk like you're on a roof.

I also am looking forward to reading your manuscript.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

I didn’t do much sailing that summer until July.

July is the start of summer.

Summer around here is July and August.

Summer doesn't start until school lets out at the end of June.

[Wyamba]

You wouldn’t say 9 knots an hour since a knot = nautical mile per hour.

Actually both Cook and Anson wrote “knots an hour” but that was in the 18th century so it doesn’t count.

[mcsmith1974]

Great stuff. And yes summer comes so late sometimes here is WI that I sometimes would offer it up as a sacrifice in order to have two the following year.

Here's what I have in the footnote:
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The lee rail is the top of the hull (or body) on the lee or downwind side of a boat, and putting the "lee rail under" the water indicates a maximum sail was being carried given the wind conditions.
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Thanks again!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

I lost no time getting to the clubhouse. We pulled out at 9:30 p.m. with a beautiful south breeze knocking off nine knots an hour with the lee rail under.

The term "knocking off nine knots an hours" is giberish to me.

A knot is one nautical mile per hour. To say knots an hour is redundant, something only a person who does not sail would say.

In that area and time of year, the wind would have died with the sun, hours earlier. A night breeze, other than something very light, would be rare. And the prevailing wind is SW. From what I can tell from just the paragraph given, they are travelling SW. It would be a foolish sailor indeed to head out at nightfall sailing directly into the wind, in the dark, near shore.

A wind of 9 knots would not be sufficient to bury the rail. 9 knots would be more like ghosting along in the dark, especially close to the south shore with flat water. More important would be the phase of the moon, as night sailing with no moon or overcast skies is much more dangerous. A full moon can make the lake bright as day.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

I lost no time getting to the clubhouse. We pulled out at 9:30 p.m.

"pulled out" is what you do with a car (or to prevent a pregnancy). A sailboat might "cast off", "slip their lines", "hoist anchor", or "get the hell outta there"....

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Wyamba

You wouldn’t say 9 knots an hour since a knot = nautical mile per hour.

Actually both Cook and Anson wrote “knots an hour” but that was in the 18th century so it doesn’t count.

Originally Posted by hamburking

The term "knocking off nine knots an hours" is giberish to me.
A knot is one nautical mile per hour. To say knots an hour is redundant, something only a person who does not sail would say.

You've both missed the point of the Original Post:

I am looking to publish a manuscript written in the late 1800's by my great grandfather about his time working on a steamship and yachting. He was a relatively poor kid who left school when he was 16 to work on the ship and its highly enjoyable to read his story.

This has been discussed numerous times here.

"Knots per hour" is incorrect in modern usage given that there is an SI definition of "knot" .

But, as Wyamba points out, there are many historical instances of this usage by very experienced sailors and it's certainly not "giberish" [sic].

The manuscript should not be changed, but perhaps an appropriate footnote pointing out the change in usage over time would be appropriate.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by hamburking

"pulled out" is what you do with a car (or to prevent a pregnancy). A sailboat might "cast off", "slip their lines", "hoist anchor", or "get the hell outta there"....

Again:


It's an old manuscript. Modern usage is totally irrelevant.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by hamburking

In that area and time of year, the wind would have died with the sun, hours earlier. A night breeze, other than something very light, would be rare. And the prevailing wind is SW. From what I can tell from just the paragraph given, they are travelling SW. It would be a foolish sailor indeed to head out at nightfall sailing directly into the wind, in the dark, near shore.

A wind of 9 knots would not be sufficient to bury the rail. 9 knots would be more like ghosting along in the dark, especially close to the south shore with flat water. More important would be the phase of the moon, as night sailing with no moon or overcast skies is much more dangerous. A full moon can make the lake bright as day.

So, are you calling MC's great grandfather a liar?

[mcsmith1974]

Guys, I appreciate all the feedback, and realize I am learning along the way so it is all helpful. The manuscript was hand-written and in some parts illegible and certainly not in terms given today's lexicon. It is what it is.

He was heading into danger during that trip though, foolish as it might have been, as the wind died down and fog set in and members of his crew began to get nervous. Very good perception!

Finally, he does use "pulled out" quite often, improper as it might be, and he's not alive to defend himself, as in:
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At 5:00 a.m. we pulled out with a nice northwest wind. It was just what we wanted. We worked our way to the head of Simcoe Island. We had the most beautiful run across Lake Ontario that I ever had in a yacht. We arrived in Oswego at 2:30 p.m. at our buoy. We put the yacht in shape, went ashore, and received a hearty welcome from members of the club. They thought we did a good job to bring back from Canada those two prize flags flying from our mast. We thanked them and said the Kingston Yacht Club gave us a wonderful time.
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I'll post when its ready for publication.

Thanks again.

MC

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

I lost no time getting to the clubhouse. We pulled out at 9:30 p.m. with a beautiful south breeze knocking off nine knots an hour with the lee rail[1] under. We carried the breeze until we were abreast of Fair Haven Light twelve miles west of Oswego.
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[1] The lee rail is a rail on the down wind side of the boat. .

Nothing wrong with using "pull out" meaning for a vessel to leave a dock, to sail out of a harbour.

In note the citation in the Oxford English Dictionary from about the time of your manuscript:

1891 C. Roberts Adrift Amer. 18 The train that was to take me on‥was nearly ready to ‘pull out’, as the phrase goes in America.

As for "knocking off nine knots an hour with the lee rail under", my interpretation is that the vessel was making 9 knots (about 4.6 metres per second) sailing to that beautiful south breeze.

I've no problem with "nine knots an hour"; it's not an uncommon usage for the time.

Do you know the waterline length or the hull length of the vessel on which he was sailing that night? I ask because that would give a guide to the speed the vessel would make under sail.

I suggest that at night the author would more likely be able to judge the speed of the vessel (by using a chip log, by estimating the length of the wave generated by the hull) than the speed of the wind.

My guess is the beautiful south breeze was greater than 18 knots, the boat had a waterline length of 45 feet or more, and the boat was doing 9 knots with the lee rail awash. A night sail that would be enjoyable.

[mcsmith1974]

It was a small yacht and one that he and some of the boys built while he was a young man.
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We wanted a sloop about thirty-foot over-all with a standing keel, a cabin that would sleep four, and good lines so we could enter her in the races.
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[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

It was a small yacht and one that he and some of the boys built while he was a young man.
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We wanted a sloop about thirty-foot over-all with a standing keel, a cabin that would sleep four, and good lines so we could enter her in the races.
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In that case I think either:

(a) he is over-estimating the speed of 9 knots; or

(b) I'm wrong and the 9 knots must refer to wind speed, and the whole sentence doesn't make sense.

That's based on my idea that what he built would have been sailing in displacement mode. And in displacement mode, the waterline length is quite influential - there's a parameter called the Froude number. Longer boats go faster and can sustain higher speed.

If the waterline length was 30.0 feet and perhaps with overhangs to make her effectively longer at speed, he'd be happy to sail at more than 7 knots, but 8 knots would be reached in rare conditions, and 9 knots would be only reached for a fleeting second or three.

If the hull were as long as 45.0 feet, 9 knots would be achievable, and more in the right circumstances.

A final note: I wouldn't call a yacht of 30 foot over all length "small". It's just a 30 foot yacht.

[mcsmith1974]

Very interesting. Thank you. "Small" wasn't my term, but his words as he was telling the story; I do however appreciate your point. in terms of the knots item, it interesting because later in the story (on an entirely different occasion and vessel), he speaks of going 15 miles at 10 knots per hour, referencing a "beautiful breeze off the land".

I'll provide the full context of the original point of debate below and maybe it will help (or not!). Either way, I may just need to leave it to the storytelling. Also, I checked the transcribed manuscript and it has the term "lea rail" vs "lee rail", so now I'm confused as to its proper spelling.

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I lost no time getting to the clubhouse. We pulled out at 9:30 p.m. with a beautiful south breeze knocking off nine knots an hour with the lee rail under. We carried the breeze until we were abreast of Fair Haven Light twelve miles west of Oswego.

Then the wind died out and a heavy fog set in that I did not like. We just had enough wind for steerage. There is always lots to do on a sailing ship in a fog. You have to keep blowing different signals to let others ships know what course you are on, keep tabs on your mileage if you are not too far in the lake, drop your lead line to find out how much water is under you. The lead is cupped out on the bottom, when you pull it up you can tell if you are over rock or sand. If it is sand, it will stick to the bottom of the lead; if is it rock it will show nothing. Then you look at the chart – it will tell your location. I learned all this when I was aboard ship in the Great Lakes and it is something to know when you run into weather like we did.

That night I was well in the lake on the port tack, when we heard a steamboat blowing signals. She was headed toward us. I was blowing two blasts on my horn. I told my crew I would not change my course until she passed us. She was blowing one blast; that was the rules at that time. She was getting closer very fast.

The boys began to get a little nervous. I told them they knew right where we were and how we were heading. That she was pulling over to our port to clear us and that’s one reason I would not change our course, for I had been on those boats and know how they feel meeting a sailing ship in a fog. It was not long before she was abreast of us. Then she blew two longs blasts to let us know she was passing us. I answered her back. Then she went on her way with a load off their minds.

Well, then I changed our course and headed southwest. I told the crew it would not be long before we would hear the foghorn at Sodus Bay. The wind shifted to the northwest. It was just right for the way I was heading. We were trolling along about five knots an hour. The day was just starting to break when we heard the fog horn at Sodus. We were heading well into the sound. It was not long after the wind shifted that the fog lifted and there we were heading right onto Sodus Point Lightabout two miles ahead. The crew couldn’t get over it. They wanted to know how the hell I had done it. I told them mostly, it be dead reckoning.

We pulled in the bay at 6:00 a.m., then up the bay around Sandy Point for the yacht club to join our fleet. Then we got a surprise of our life – there was not one of the Oswego fleet there. We could not figure it out unless they changed their minds and went to some other place.

We dropped anchor off at the yacht club and started breakfast. When we finished eating and were getting ready to go ashore, we saw a yacht coming into bay. It was the Nautilus from Oswego. She belonged to William Coad, a cousin of mine.

I said to the crew, “Wait till you hear Bill when he sees us.” I said, “You know I have had some funny experiences happen to me since I left home to go steam boating on the Great Lakes and this is one more for my book that I am going to write someday.”
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