Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-10-2006, 19:25   #31
Kai Nui
Guest

Posts: n/a
Yarrrrr... Sean. Like the new avatar
One point that was brushed on here, but I feel is critical, is the fact that some people never learn. There are some who start out on small boats, and work their way up, but after 10 years of boating, they are still crash landing into the slip. For those, the only difference a smaller boat would make is the amount of damage they will do WHEN they hit you.
With modern systems, virtually any sized boat can be single handed, but who the heck wants to be alone out there on a 100 footer? Again, we also need to define what "big" is. Is a 37' boat big? Or does it have to pass the 40' mark? To me, a 40 footer, for a couple starting out coastal is fine. A 50 footer, now that is big, but that is just my opinion. I can say from experience, for Susan and I around 35' is good. Kittiwake gets a bit tight for the two of us after a couple of days. Sundari, (40') is so big, except in the calmest conditions, Susan is scared to sail her. The trimaran is 37'. Interior space is ideal. (although small compared to a 37' mono). We will see how comfortable she is to handle when we get her in the water. Our first cruising boat was 34' on deck, 40 overall. We were both very comfortable aboard, and underway. That is the only boat I have ever gotten Susan to dock.
That said, the first boat I ever brought into a slip was a 50' wooden trawler. I was as comfortable then as I am now. I think the right size boat really depends on the individual. Of course, when all they do is hand you the keys and say good luck, there are going to be allot of Do Do's out ther in 50' boats running into dinghys
__________________

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 01:23   #32
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,596
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpj23
Name one skill that you cannot learn on a large boat that can be learned on a small one?
Capsize recovery (righting) ...
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 07:41   #33
Registered User
 
markpj23's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Black Hills, SD
Boat: Now Boatless
Posts: 1,148
Images: 47
I agree that the completely oblivious / uncaring folks who play pinball in the marina are a threat. So I concede that a smaller boat colliding w/yours will do less damage...

But this really goes to personality types and what people are 'made of' doesn't it? If a completely inexperienced person buys a boat and then casts off to cause mayhem in the marina, that would happen REGARDLESS of boat size wouldn't it? The only delta is the potential damage they would cause to others.

So we can demand that no one else buy a craft larger than our own.... ?

How many experienced boaters have had things go wrong and collided with others in the marina? By the logic here, that would never happen?

I just don't see where "size matters" in this scenario.... incompetent skippers drive all sorts of things. So do experienced ones who get into trouble. No one likes to be on the receiving end of a collision, but that's part of the reality. People are human and have 'accidents' - either on the highways or on the water. To completely avoid that we'd all have to stay home... and how much fun would that be?

__________________
Mark
markpj23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 09:55   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,141
It seems that the "size" police are out there now telling folks what size boat is good for them. I guess they can't move with the times. Everything changes, fact of the matter is that starter boats have been getting bigger ever since starting sailors got more money. Not all sailors have to start in dinghys and work up, or even start in small keel boats. Many of these new owners didn't sail as kids. They would like to learn in relative comfort. Most of them want to go cruising in a comfortable boat, now! Not spend ten years trading up. I think we're all a bit envious of those that can start off in boats most of us only dream of owning. Let them buy their boats, if it doesn't work out for them you might be able to pick it up cheap.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 10:09   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,834
We all know that sailing is one of the few freedoms we have left in this day and age. My point is, I sincerely hope that with today's litigious society that the idiot drivers of big boats cause (here it comes) boater licensing requirements to take effect. Perish the thought, but as has been pointed out by both pro and con posters here, the potential damage done by a big boat is more than a small boat.

There was once a puzzler on "Click and Clacks the Tappet Brothers" auto show which asked,

"Which would do more damage if it hit something, a Volkswagen Beetle going supersonic, or the Queen Mary going half a knot?"


It was of course, the Queen Mary.

Special licensing is necessary to drive a commercial truck, semi, school bus etc. so think hard about the "I can do whatever I want without knowing anything just be cause I can afford it" business. The rest of us in the marina or anchorage will thank you and breathe a little easier.

Steve B.
__________________
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 12:27   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Aloha All,
I enjoy this thread because I get to try to make a point without too much of a rant. My concern about big boaters who don't know how to sail because they don't have experience on small boats without engines are that they try to drive boats and not skipper them. They are pretend seamen or pretend sailors.
They are a danger to my boat at a dock, underway and especially anchoring. When collisions occur I know how long and what expense it takes me to repair things because I put my boat together. Big boat "drivers" who have no experience don't understand that money does not fix everything. Damage takes time to repair which I don't have a whole bunch of.
I have nothing against big boats or big boaters who are good skippers. I've sailed them up to 55 feet. I don't want one because I want sailing to be fun and sailing the big ones IMHO is work.
Regards,
JohnL
P.S. If your mate can't dock the boat confidently because it is too large then what happens if you are incapacitaded?
__________________
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 12:47   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco
It seems that the "size" police are out there now telling folks what size boat is good for them.
It doesn't seem anyone said that. I asked why someone would buy a large (50/60/70 footer) with little or no experience?

To me, large is more a function of weight then length. A boat that can not be manhandled off a dock (24,000 pounds) I consider a large boat. Sails are large, sheet loads are big, everything takes time on a boat this size. Are there many 50 footers weighing less then 24k? Talking monos here.

Then I said, a large boat is a dangerous and expensive platform to learn on. The money part I do not care about, that is the owners problem, loose all the money you want. Safety, how do you tell someone that the mistake they learned not to make on a 30 footer is very severe on a 60 footer if they never had the chance to make it on the 30 footer. A nasty abrasion becomes the loss of two fingers, the nasty bump on the head becomes a fatal concussion,...

From a learning standpoint, what is so tough about buying the 30-35 footer to learn on? Sail it for a couple years then move up to a 45 footer. If you still want more after playing with the 45 get that 60 footer.

Lot's of posts start out with "In six years we are selling the farm and buying the 58 footer but I haven't sailed in 22 years. Whats a good boat?" Well, if you have six years you'll be well served to buy something you can sail today to bring your skills up. That does not mean you can't buy that 58 in six year.

Size Police? Hardly. Realistic? Oh Yea.
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-10-2006, 13:53   #38
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpj23
I agree that the completely oblivious / uncaring folks who play pinball in the marina are a threat. So I concede that a smaller boat colliding w/yours will do less damage...

But this really goes to personality types and what people are 'made of' doesn't it? If a completely inexperienced person buys a boat and then casts off to cause mayhem in the marina, that would happen REGARDLESS of boat size wouldn't it? The only delta is the potential damage they would cause to others.

So we can demand that no one else buy a craft larger than our own.... ?

How many experienced boaters have had things go wrong and collided with others in the marina? By the logic here, that would never happen?

I just don't see where "size matters" in this scenario.... incompetent skippers drive all sorts of things. So do experienced ones who get into trouble. No one likes to be on the receiving end of a collision, but that's part of the reality. People are human and have 'accidents' - either on the highways or on the water. To completely avoid that we'd all have to stay home... and how much fun would that be?

Agreed! Anyone in any boat can cause damage. I even had kids in a 420 hit me this summer while at anchor and they put a nice long scratch down the hull. I was livid that the sailing camp was allowing them to weave and dodge between boats at anchor and in the mooring field without proper instruction. Who is going to fix that scratch? Nobody. I'm stuck with it.

I think that's the real meat of the problem.

But... I also don't agree with licensing. I was very surprised here in NJ to see that ALL boaters are required to pass a test and carry a license. My master's license exempts me, as does the fact that I'm not from here and just visiting - I think. But where is the happy medium?

We can't have people causing damage and sailing off with their middle finger up (it happened to me while at anchor). We also don't want regulation. Why is it that so many people are missing the social values and morals that would keep them from behaving this way? I'm only 34, but I feel like an old man, wondering where the "good old days" went. It's really this attitude of "_blank_ 'em" that causes this problem... large boat, small boat, or even a car. This really is the problem. Where has common courtesty and responsibility gone? We'll have more "babysitter" laws soon enough if enough people refuse to follow the social order and behave.

I think we focus in on large boats because as Mark says... they do a bit more damage when they do hit. He is right though... any boats can cause damage. It's unfortunate, but I think this complaint follows a larger course our socieity has been on for some years now.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2006, 08:20   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
forgetting collision with innocents at anchor or in the next slip, (its happened to me too, had the pulpit ripped right off by an idiot); i'm surprized that no one seems to have mentionned that running a big boat is dependant on systems that provide the oomph necessary to control these size yachts: hydraulic steering, electric winches/windlasses etc, etc, etc. what happens offshore when full batten main jams in the tracks and won't budge; when you can't reef down because an electric winch has shorted out? when an autopilot quits and you have to hand steer a behemoth in big seas singlehanded because the rest of your family is incompetant...i believe that if you can't do EVERYTHING without mechanical assistance you are asking for serious trouble and are endangering the lives of everyone aboard.
__________________
little boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2006, 09:20   #40
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
My philosophy is the same as yours, Little Boat. But, I have to grudgingly admit that the person who buys a boat they can't control manually has the right to take that risk - so long as they don't call the Coast Guard.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2006, 16:30   #41
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Hi ssullivan, seems we have the same clowns in the 420s in Manly harbour Brisbane. Had my last boat hit plenty of times and witnessed a few beatings to others. Kids laughed and thought it was a great joke, as kids do, and the managers of the sailing school did'nt want to know and neither did port authority.

Seems a shame that some young sailing folk are being taught not to give a f### at a young age.

Also agree that licenceing is a bit of joke for some. In Qld everyone is req. to be licensed to opperate a boat, we never needed one for sail it was only power up to a certain hp.

Can't see how doing a test in a 12 ft tinny is going to give me any knowledge in handling my 50 ft powercat, or average joe yachtie in his 30 ft keeler.

A bit of list making and revinue raising me thinks.

Dave
__________________
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-2006, 22:09   #42
Kai Nui
Guest

Posts: n/a
What's the world coming to? Here it is the kayakers that think it is fun to paddle between the ammas of the trimarans, and like to wedge against the boats to sit and watch the birds. It seems to apply to all ages, so I do not think it is generation specific. The fact is, "Bling" rules the world. For many, a boat is a status symbol (as it has been for years) but with average incomes for the upper middle class being more in the 6 figure range, dropping a few hundred K for a 50 footer to show off to your friends is a heck of allot easier than it used to be. Determining who are the weekend warriors, and who are the cruisers is easy. Just ask them why they chose the boat they did. If the answer is long the lines of wanting lots of deck space for all the bikini clad ladies, you have a pretty good idea of what you are dealing with. If it is along the lines of, "I need seperate cabins for my teenagers" or "I will be sailing with a crew" you can bet some serious thought went into the size of the boat.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2006, 01:15   #43
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Whoops... want to make it clear that I didn't mean "kids these days." I mean people in general these days. Up at 3AM right now because of some strong winds and rain tonight. It's hard to sleep while your boat is interacting with a dock - when you're used to the relative tranquility of anchoring in storms. The hard jerking motion really annoys me.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2006, 04:24   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: FL
Boat: Far East Mariner 40
Posts: 652
Weather today in CT

Sean,

The weather is going to be snotty today as I know you are aware. I am now a few miles up the CT River at a mooring and she is starting to bounce a bit. Me thinks today could be interesting with the wind that is forecast....
__________________
Islandmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2006, 07:52   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Boat: MacGregor 26M Lynx
Posts: 352
Well, It seams strange that people will want to get a big boat and not know how to drive it, then people ski and don't know how.

Do we need more laws? NO, I think we have enough already.

Better training required, I would hope so. But if they do not want it, would it help to require it?

Bigger fines??

How do you get rid of the PWC's???

To big, to small, not in my area? Well, no zoning please. I just hope one of the big boats do not break loose and hits my boat. YUCK. (unless they have lot's of money)
__________________

__________________
Lynx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.