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**carstenb** · 17-09-2012, 09:49

Raku,

The reason a few persons jumped on you is that youstated catagorically that all sailboats should give way to all commercial vessels (I won't bother to get the exact quote. Let's just say I just quoted the spirit of it).

Now read Dockheads comment which is entirely correct. I sail every day in the straits between Denmark and Sweden. We also have every manner of craft you have ever seen coming through the water and the big ones come at speeds of 15-25 knots.

The straits are fairly narrow and not deep. Obviously, I avoid all those ships and I do so by showing very CLEARLY and EARLY that I will give way. I do this because I practice good seamanship. Should I end up in a collision situation (say in fog) I will follow the Colregs. Why? Because that is what the other ship will EXPECT me to do, and they will act accordingly.

So the advice from the CG is correct - but you must temper it with good seamanship, which is the overriding rule of the Colregs - always practice good seamanship

**Dockhead** · 17-09-2012, 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by foggysail

WTF! Why does anybody need a copy of COLREGS when facing a potential collision situation???? GET OUT OF HARMS WAY AND LIVE AWHILE LONGER!

Foggy

You had better know the Colregs by heart, prior to getting into a potential collision situation. Forget getting out the book. Just like you shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car without knowing that a red light means stop. Just "getting out of harm's way" will not be enough in many situations, just like it's not enough on the road. It's very easy to maneuver into a collision -- in fact willy-nilly maneuvering by skippers ignorant of the Colregs is a frequent cause of collisions and fatal accidents.

**Wotname** · 17-09-2012, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony B

Question: Does it tell us anything about size? We wouldn't be discussing this if everything was 'clear'. I don't have a copy of the CR's handy. As previously stated, there is a serious maneuverability problem with large vessels. Is it still written anywhere that the smaller more maneuverable boat surrender the ROW or never have had it in the first place because of size? It should not have to wait for the "if a collision is inevitable, then BOTH shall change course and speed......".
Like I said earlier, I remember it being writen somewhere back then , but cant remember where. Maybe is was in the preface to the COLREGS?

Lets see if I can explain this simply.

I am the small boat guy, you are the big boat guy. We are both out there on the water and it looks like our paths might cross. For the sake of this explanation, lets say I am also the stand on guy under the CRs.

I am bound to stand on and after a short while it becomes clear that we are both on a collision course. As you haven't changed course as required by the CRs, I must assume that you can't (otherwise you would have). Therefore I must change course as required by the CR's. I do so and all is well. The CRs have been followed to letter of the law, we both knew what was happening (because we are both responsible skippers) and we didn't have to invent any ad hoc rules. It was never a case that I "had right of way" and could force a collision. Nor was it a case of me causing you to carry out an emergency stop or whatever.

It was simply a case that I observed you didn't alter course because you couldn't. The reason you couldn't was immaterial to me. It could be as simple as you couldn't see me (even with a very good look out).

EDIT:

If this is still unclear, re-read Dockheads recent posts, he explains it much better than me and he did so while I posted

Hyprdrv · 17-09-2012, 09:55

What about common courtesy? What ever happened to common sense? I see a boat around me and I don't see size I see an opportunity for a problem and determine what to do to minimize the danger if something goes wrong. I know that isn't a common way of thinking as the 2 power boats where passing on either side of me in a channel that would only allow for 2 boats to pass this weekend. But then I moved to Starboard to allow the oncoming boat to pass to Port with plenty of time to watch the one from astern up my ass to veer out of the channel while putting his boat into reverse. By the way the 6 knot marker was not 50 feet in front of him while he was still doing 15 knots. Would I try that with a SHIP? Nope. But then it wouldn't have been just 3 ft of water outside the channel and I would have been out of his way in plenty of time. What ever happened to common courtesy and common sense?

Tony B · 17-09-2012, 10:03

Nothing personal, just playing here.
I have seen written many times on various forums that there is a difference between Right of Way and Stand-on/Give way. I don't see any difference. Under normal conditions the stand-on vessel is to maintain course and speed. To me,this is a right of way under another name. The Give way vessel is to yield or surrender the right of way. To me ,the words are different but mean the same. It's just a matter of samantics. The rules are the same in avoidance of a collision between the two regardless of what you call it.
Once you determine that a collision is inevitable, then you both must take evasive action, which has no longer anything to do with stand-on/ROW. If you both followed the rules, then the possibility of a collision should never have existed because one guy would have yielded to the other long before that. Who yields? Normally it should be the Give Way vessel because he does not have the ROW.

foggysail · 17-09-2012, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You had better know the Colregs by heart, prior to getting into a potential collision situation. Forget getting out the book. Just like you shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car without knowing that a red light means stop. Just "getting out of harm's way" will not be enough in many situations, just like it's not enough on the road. It's very easy to maneuver into a collision -- in fact willy-nilly maneuvering by skippers ignorant of the Colregs is a frequent cause of collisions and fatal accidents.

My boat is 40'. I am required to have a copy of COLREGS on board. Yes, I understand COLREGS! And yes in an earlier post in this thread I stated "each boat shall attempt to avoid a collision".

My point was one should not need a rule book when a potential collision is about to occur. GET OUT OF THE WAY!

Foggy

Vasco · 17-09-2012, 10:18

OK! You win!!

Tony B · 17-09-2012, 10:19

Wow! This thread is skyrocketing in under 30 minutes.

I am playing devils advocate here because I was under the impression that this thread was based on actual rules and not on logic and good seamanship. Logic and good seamanship would be a diferent topic.
The idea behind the rules is so that we should never get into a situation where we must revert the the rule about both vessels having to take evasive action. I also know that communication between two vessels changes the who's who of who might normally be stand-on/give-way. This is usually on a voluntary basis because of a particular situation.

My original question was "has anyone here ever heard of anything officially written about smaller vessels staying out of the way of larger vessels?"

**Wotname** · 17-09-2012, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony B

Nothing personal, just playing here.
I have seen written many times on various forums that there is a difference between Right of Way and Stand-on/Give way. I don't see any difference. Under normal conditions the stand-on vessel is to maintain course and speed. To me,this is a right of way under another name. The Give way vessel is to yield or surrender the right of way. To me ,the words are different but mean the same. It's just a matter of samantics. The rules are the same in avoidance of a collision between the two regardless of what you call it.
Once you determine that a collision is inevitable, then you both must take evasive action, which has no longer anything to do with stand-on/ROW. If you both followed the rules, then the possibility of a collision should never have existed because one guy would have yielded to the other long before that. Who yields? Normally it should be the Give Way vessel because he does not have the ROW.

No, under the CRs, you don't have to wait until the collision is inevitable , you take what ever action to avoid the collision.

The point is simple, if the give way vessel hasn't given way, then it might just be because he can't (for whatever reason). It is then up to the stand on vessel to give way but this only works if both parties know their responsibilities under the CRs and acts accordingly.

Really, IMO, Dockhead explains it very well

Stu Jackson · 17-09-2012, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony B

My original question was "has anyone here ever heard of anything officially written about smaller vessels staying out of the way of larger vessels?"

Why not just read the Colregs (complete) earlier provided? That'd answer your question wouldn't it?

Tony B · 17-09-2012, 10:34

From my experience, most boaters are not responsible boaters. When many of the irresponsible boaters get out there they are there for fun and hell raising, which would be OK if they were responsible. But they are not.

What sets us and other boating forum members apart is that we are either responsible or learning and striving to be responsible. One or two blasts of your horn means nothing to most boaters. Those are the same boaters that don't turn on their VHF's.

Having said that, I think that these type threads are popular mainly because we just want to know.

**Wotname** · 17-09-2012, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony B

Wow! This thread is skyrocketing in under 30 minutes.

I am playing devils advocate here because I was under the impression that this thread was based on actual rules and not on logic and good seamanship. Logic and good seamanship would be a diferent topic.
The idea behind the rules is so that we should never get into a situation where we must revert the the rule about both vessels having to take evasive action. I also know that communication between two vessels changes the who's who of who might normally be stand-on/give-way. This is usually on a voluntary basis because of a particular situation.

My original question was "has anyone here ever heard of anything officially written about smaller vessels staying out of the way of larger vessels?"

Err... the rules are the very essence logic and good seamanship and logic and good seamanship encompasses the rules. You simply can't have one without the other; they go together like a horse and carriage

.

And No, there isn't anything officially written about smaller vessels staying out of the way of larger vessels if I recall correctly. As others have said, common sense does dictate that small guys try to stay away from big guys.

Tony B · 17-09-2012, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Why not just read the Colregs (complete) earlier provided? That'd answer your question wouldn't it?

I have read the COLREGS a while back. I didn't see it there. I am just trying to remember where I did see it. I know I saw it somewhere about 20 years ago or so, just don't remember where. My internet is slow here and most things I can not download so I wont be able to see them again until I get home.