Always use a snubber or your boat could end up like...

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

I am certain from my experience that there are thousands of experienced sailors managing quite well 99% of the time without Snubbers of the shock absorbing type discussed here.

I respectfully suggest that if you feel that way in the face of scientific and empirical information that you stay off elevators and bridges and pretty much out of buildings.



You'll need footnotes for thousands of sailors who anchor without snubbers, recognizing that rope/chain rodes are de facto snubbers. You, sir, are wrong.

[lestersails]

I'm getting really confused here - people are rebutting contradictions of assertions and I can't tell what it is that people are arguing FOR.

For people who say "I don't use a snubber" - say what you DO use. I can't imagine they leave the chain on gypsy, but maybe they do? For those of us not born of king Triton - we need to hear the positive assertions, rather than telling us who is wrong! Much more helpful for me to learn from you all telling me exactly how you would do it.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The only seacock I have that would not be used on passage is raw water washdown, and we've actually used that, so I don't close any. I do however touch every one, cycle the valve, check the hose clamps, and inspect the hose. I do this regularly without respect to passagemaking - what difference sinking at sea or the dock?

I can swim to the dock.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I respectfully suggest that if you feel that way in the face of scientific and empirical information that you stay off elevators and bridges and pretty much out of buildings.



You'll need footnotes for thousands of sailors who anchor without snubbers, recognizing that rope/chain rodes are de facto snubbers. You, sir, are wrong.

Auspicious
I am a bit confused about the talk of Elevators, Bridges and Buildings but I agree Rope/Chain rodes effectively include a Snubber of the type described in this thread.

What I perhaps did not make clear is that I understand an all chain rode, which is very common here in the UK, does also have shock absorbing capability up until the point at which the chain is lifted bar taught. In my actual lived experience that is rare and so I choose not to add an additional elastic element in the system when I feel it is not needed and as I have said before I like to hear the transmitted noise of the chain moving on the bottom.

I beginning to think that every post you make has to end with a absolute claim that someone else is 100% wrong and because I would like us both be happy I will state that 2 & 2 makes 78.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by lestersails

I'm getting really confused here - people are rebutting contradictions of assertions and I can't tell what it is that people are arguing FOR.

For people who say "I don't use a snubber" - say what you DO use. I can't imagine they leave the chain on gypsy, but maybe they do? For those of us not born of king Triton - we need to hear the positive assertions, rather than telling us who is wrong! Much more helpful for me to learn from you all telling me exactly how you would do it.

Lestersails

I am not sure if you are asking me but if you read up thread you will see I have said what I do.

My feeling is that if using an all chain rode (which is the normal situation for me) I would not rely solely on the Windlass Gypsy, even if it has a clutch and a Pawl. Either secure the chain directly on a very strong Bollard/Cleat/Sampson Post or (and more convenient for all but small boats) using a chain hook, stopper, or some other method, take the load off the Windlass onto such a strong point (you can leave the slightly slack chain on the Gypsy).

As I said above in normally benign conditions I actually wrap the chain around my Sampson Post (which is in front of the Windlass just a touch to one side of the chain) then take the slack out with the windlass and tighten the clutch and drop in the locking pawl. I can get away with this as the boat is not too big and I can normally handle the load in the 5/16" chain by hand (Plus the Manual S/L 555 Windlass is oversize for my boat). However I am aware that this system would not be ideal if the conditions were going to get much worse as then it could be tricky to remove the chain wrap from the Post. In that case I would use a Chain hook and short snubber to take the load to the post (easier to release).

If I had no choice but to lie at anchor in a particularly choppy anchorage or with a big swell I might add some rope to the rode but my preference would be to move to somewhere more comfortable :-)

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

Lestersails

I am not sure if you are asking me but if you read up thread you will see I have said what I do.

My feeling is that if using an all chain rode (which is the normal situation for me) I would not rely solely on the Windlass Gypsy, even if it has a clutch and a Pawl. Either secure the chain directly on a very strong Bollard/Cleat/Sampson Post or (and more convenient for all but small boats) using a chain hook, stopper, or some other method, take the load off the Windlass onto such a strong point (you can leave the slightly slack chain on the Gypsy).

As I said above in normally benign conditions I actually wrap the chain around my Sampson Post (which is in front of the Windlass just a touch to one side of the chain) then take the slack out with the windlass and tighten the clutch and drop in the locking pawl. I can get away with this as the boat is not too big and I can normally handle the load in the 5/16" chain by hand (Plus the Manual S/L 555 Windlass is oversize for my boat). However I am aware that this system would not be ideal if the conditions were going to get much worse as then it could be tricky to remove the chain wrap from the Post. In that case I would use a Chain hook and short snubber to take the load to the post (easier to release).

If I had no choice but to lie at anchor in a particularly choppy anchorage or with a big swell I might add some rope to the rode but my preference would be to move to somewhere more comfortable :-)

Very helpful - thanks!

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by lestersails

I'm getting really confused here - people are rebutting contradictions of assertions and I can't tell what it is that people are arguing FOR.

For people who say "I don't use a snubber" - say what you DO use. I can't imagine they leave the chain on gypsy, but maybe they do? For those of us not born of king Triton - we need to hear the positive assertions, rather than telling us who is wrong! Much more helpful for me to learn from you all telling me exactly how you would do it.

The key point is that if you don’t use a snubber you must still belay the chain or rode so that there’s no load on the windlass whatsoever. You should do this before backing down. A chain stopper might be considered enough (but it would have to be well fixed). A turn or two around a Samson post is perfect, if you have one to hand. A chain hook is also good, again if it’s attached to something solid.

My boat has no Samson post but it does have very large cleats. So I have a piece of 18mm nylon octoplait that goes from the midship cleats, through the eye of the forward cleat on one side, around the outside of the pulpit, through the eye of the other forward cleat and back to the other midship cleat. Where it runs through the forward cleats it sits in a piece of clear pipe as a chafe guard. It’s always there, out of the way, with a soft shackle that lifts it up under the dolphin seat out of the way. When I’ve run out my anchor, I undo this soft shackle, secure it through a chain link, and then let out another 3-4 metres of chain. Takes seconds, and means that I’m running the anchor to a bridle across the bow, made from around 20m of nylon so plenty of stretch, although all of it remains out of the water so it stays clean. Having it set up this way means the easiest way for me to anchor is to set a big snubber bridle. I don’t wait for the conditions to make it necessary to rig one — it’s always there.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

I wonder if there is a cultural difference.

There are lots of posters, who I suspect are US based, who insist that the lesson here is Always Use a Snubber, which I find odd given that I cannot remember the last time I used one. Here in the UK I don't see them that often although they are maybe more common than they used to be. I see Dockhead seems to agree they are not essential and I believe he is sometimes UK based.
...

Perhaps I’ll just quote my earlier post on this Idlegreg:

Nothing is “mandatory” when it comes to cruising. But there is a set of best practices which can be learned and discerned from the collective experience of fellow cruisers.

I almost always rig dual snubbers (bridle) when I drop the hook. I also hook the chain with a chain-stopper, and then engage the mechanical lock on my windlass clutch. There have been rare occasions when I’ve not snubbed, but since I rarely anchor for short periods, it only seems prudent to tie in the lines.

That said, it’s certainly possible to be perfectly safe a lot of the time without snubbers. All-chain rode will have significant catenary/or its weight & friction on the ground will act as good energy dampeners. So I can see people getting complacent with this arrangement.

It will be fine — until it’s not .

Sound dampening is only a minor benefit of using a snubber. The main function is as a shock absorber. It’s true, most of the time a snubber is not needed. But when it is needed, you sure as heck want one attached.

You muse about cultural difference … perhaps. Or maybe it represents a difference in the dominate types of anchorages UK cruisers experience vs us over in the New World. In my case there have been countless anchorages I’ve been in which have turned from placid to harsh, where my chain would have been bar-hard without my snubbers attached.

Given how easy it is to attach proper snubbers, it just seems a simple and prudent part of good anchoring. I place it on par with proper setting and digging in of the anchor.

BTW, a snubber doesn’t erase the grumbling sound as the chain drags around. At least on nmy boat, I can still hear it quite well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I respectfully suggest that if you feel that way in the face of scientific and empirical information that you stay off elevators and bridges and pretty much out of buildings.

You'll need footnotes for thousands of sailors who anchor without snubbers, recognizing that rope/chain rodes are de facto snubbers. You, sir, are wrong.

Sorry, but with the greatest of respect, he's right, and you should not be so aggressive and so dismissive. I have seen with my own eyes thousands of boats anchored without snubbers; I am a witness to what he says. Over here on this side of the Atlantic, cruising boats over a certain size and carrying heavy chain usually do not use snubbers in calm weather. Might be different in U.S. waters, but over here that's what we do. I never use a snubber myself unless the wind is over 20 knots or there is any question about the shelter, so 90% of the time -- and I anchor A LOT -- I am snubberless. One-third of a metric tonne of chain is an awfully good snubber. Ships don't use snubbers.


I do, however, religiously lock off my chain, never ever leaving the windlass taking the load except when actually raising or lowering the anchor. For this I use a length of chain anchored at the inner forestay chainplate, with a chain hook. Every element of which is as strong as my 1/2" G4 chain.


This winter I will change that out for a strop made of 14mm UHMWPE, which is about twice as strong as the chain.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . You muse about cultural difference … perhaps. Or maybe it represents a difference in the dominate types of anchorages UK cruisers experience vs us over in the New World. In my case there have been countless anchorages I’ve been in which have turned from placid to harsh, where my chain would have been bar-hard without my snubbers attached..l.

In my experience, there is a definite cultural difference.


But besides that, there are other factors. First of all, SIZE. If the chain is less than say 10mm, then you will need the snubber if there is the slightest wave action, which means you always use it. But with 12mm chain, it takes a LOT of wave action or a really big wind, to use up your catenary, if you have a lot of chain out. Second, DEPTH. We are in big tidal waters around the UK, Channel, and North Sea; tidal range of over 40 feet is not unusual. So we typically anchor in much deeper water than we often do in the U.S. So we typically have a lot more chain out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

The key point is that if you don’t use a snubber you must still belay the chain or rode so that there’s no load on the windlass whatsoever. You should do this before backing down. A chain stopper might be considered enough (but it would have to be well fixed). A turn or two around a Samson post is perfect, if you have one to hand. A chain hook is also good, again if it’s attached to something solid...

Indeed!


But this should be done whether or not you are using a snubber. And it should be done in a manner which is as strong as the chain.



Snubbers are not appropriate devices for belaying the chain -- they are by design not strong or chafe-resistant enough to fulfill this function reliably. Nylon which is loaded up enough to be doing its job as a shock absorber, is highly vulnerable to chafe and is subject to failure from internal heating. Who here has never broken a snubber? I've broken, well maybe not dozens, but multiple snubbers in my cruising life, and actually few of those failed due to chafe.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not everyone gets a blue ribbon for showing up. What Zephyr said is flat wrong. Not just in the Med but everywhere. That means Zephyr and presumably Sea Dogs is either oblivious or lying. Period. Dot.

Unfortunately if the Balearics in August are remotely like the other side of Gib he's right. Every anchorage bristling with charter/annual month out sailing boats with no idea. Much of southern Europe takes August off. Well known to full time cruisers, bit of a brisk sea breeze in the afternoon and watch them drag. So if they've just seen a bit of the med at that time of the year then no great surprise to think very few boats use a snubber. Cos they don't. Period. Dot.

[danielhwolf]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

It’s like going to a retsina tasting. Who tastes different sorts of paint thinner to see what they are like? Jeepers.

Hey! I like retsina (with Greek feta cheese and olives)! :~))

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by conachair

Unfortunately if the Balearics in August are remotely like the other side of Gib he's right. Every anchorage bristling with charter/annual month out sailing boats with no idea. Much of southern Europe takes August off. Well known to full time cruisers, bit of a brisk sea breeze in the afternoon and watch them drag. So if they've just seen a bit of the med at that time of the year then no great surprise to think very few boats use a snubber. Cos they don't. Period. Dot.

Don't the charter boats have to have someone on board in charge of the vessel at all times when anchored? It's a bit different then. Every bareboat I've ever taken has always forbidden leaving the boat unattended at anchor.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Don't the charter boats have to have someone on board in charge of the vessel at all times when anchored? It's a bit different then. Every bareboat I've ever taken has always forbidden leaving the boat unattended at anchor.

Might have that written on a piece of paper somewhere but people tend to do as they please, the real world anchorages can be chaos in August. Friend this year had a Spanish boat drag onto him in the algarve when they put down too little scope, went ashore then the tide came in...