WHY I DON'T TRUST SURVEYORS

[Alan Wheeler]

Hmmmm, we have a little problem in NZ with MD's. They no longer make the ultimate decision. They will "empower you" with all the info on your problem and a suggested remedy. But then THEY ask YOU what you think and witch corse of Action you would suggest you take. That way it takes the resposibilty away from them. I thought and still think it is hideouse when I have this approach used on me. I first thought it was just my doctor when I first had it happen. I changed Doctors only to find it was a conspiracy of approach.

Anyway's, in regards to the boat issue. Well the first person Blame can be held against is the Seller. The law in a nutshell is that the Seller can not "hide" things. But the difficulty is proving the Seller new and I suggest that is close to impossible.
The next is the Broker. It is required by law that the Broker must not mis-represent any particulars about the boat. Say for instance, the boat is advertised with a 150Hp engine and it turns out after the purchase that the engine is one 100Hp. But then the Broker has a little disclaimer in their contract that wipes them of responsibility, that the info is accurate as to what the Seller has told them. The Broker has no resposibility to info given. So that leaves the Purchaser with the work of proving who and if the Seller was the second owner, then the seller can say that that is the info they have believed all along and the Buyer still has no easy leg to stand on.
So at the end of it all, the saying "Buyer be ware" is the truth. The Buyer is the poor guy at the end of it all, with very little comback unless he has a lot of money to contest and a damn good lawyer, whom in the end takes a fare slice of the pudding anyway.
Personaly, I don't think it is fair. At least here in NZ, we don't have any licencing requirments for Brokers. I think they SHOULD require licencing AND have certain responsibilities to the purchaser. Here in NZ, the Broker earns from 6-10% of the sellign price of the boat. In some circumstances, advertising can be on top of that as well. So they do didlysquat for the return, apart from being the deal maker and go between of the two parties.

[hellosailor]

Wheels-
I can't say about Canada, but in some of the US states (not all, not federal law) a REAL ESTATE seller must disclose known conditions. A seller of "chattel goods" including motor vehicles and boats? No burden to speak up. Which is one reason why brokers (even home brokers) often prefer to show the house with the seller NOT THERE. That way, they can't open their mouth to queer the deal.

I think requiring the broker to reveal all and be responsible for all would be to introduce terrific tension into the business. My opinion is that the best way to go would be to not cloak the broker into an image of respectability by "empowering" the buyer with their very predjudised info but to go after the surveyors HARD! In Australia though, the issue is more fundamental. Even if the law provides remedy, the courts make it's use impractical.

Example; Few years ago we bought a block of land in Airlie Beach. Hillside with a veiw over Pioneer Bay. After the purchase we found that one of the survey pegs was a phony!! One of the neighbours had built unto our property with illegal, non approved structures, planted trees and put up a rock wall, all on our property and put in the phoney peg (into our property about a metre and a half) to hide it. The neighbour next to him had taken a big cut out of our property to create more flat land on his site, leaving the raw and nearly vertical 6 foot cut on our side! Local council couldn't be bothered and we tried "mediation" with laughable result. We went to a respected local lawyer, it was going to cost us up front $25,000 for each neighbour with no guarenttee it would end there or that we would be compensated fully if we won. How's that grab you?! and yes, we checked with other attorneys.

the nut of it was.. we sold the place fast knowing that the property was to grow in value, I figured to as much as half a million but I was wrong, it is a million$$ plus property now. We decided to do something with the small profit we did make that would do something good to balance the evil. That was the seed money for this publishing idea I had... thus The Coastal Passage. I know this sounds crazy, it's why we keep all the documents and photos and the phoney peg and survey report to this day because some find it hard to believe but it is true the bad luck we have had.

The point is that with the poor judicial system we have in OZ it is really a gross example of BUYER BEWARE which is why I preach at every opportunity to be responsibly for your self in these matters.

"Impowered"... yeah I like that!

Cheers

[hellosailor]

Not to wander too far OT Bob, but I can't understand how your laws would allow land theft that way. There should be, in theory, titles and deeds and survey maps filed with the state/county/shire/town, whatever you have. Peg's not where the survey says it should be? Too bad, it gets moved, unless the neighbor can pay your price to buy that excess land. Not to mention his responsiblity for the taxes on it, not to mention criminal fraud if it can be proven he moved it or caused it to be moved.

there was no doubt of who owned it after the pegs were properly adjusted by my survey company but.. that still left me with much of my land unusable because of raw cuts and illegal buildings. It was a $40,000 fine for falsefying or moving pegs but that means little if the people supposed to be enforcing aren't interested. The bad neigbours had a big advantage in that they did all this stuff with no one around to see it. the land had been vacant.This is the "deep north" and the locals are very ugly people. I was warned! but I couldn't believe it when I heard it. In short, We looked at every alternative we could find, we didn't just say oh well and accept it. But sometimes you cut your losses.

[hellosailor]

"The bad neigbours had a big advantage in that they did all this stuff with no one around to see it. the land had been vacant."
In the US there is a legal concept called "adverse possession" that imvolves a time period ranging from 21 years (traditional) to 5 years (in some jurisdictions now). Basically, if you "take" land and make use of it, and publicly claim that you own it...after the time period tolls, you own it. Goes back to old english common law to ensure that land was (is) being used for good purpose. And of course, only the Crown is immune to losing land that way. So...if the past owner didn't check...he might indeed have lost title to it. Which might actually make things easier, here at least you could have put in a claim against the title insurance AND gotten your property taxes rebated.<G>

But I hear you, if the local authorities are in cahoots...nuff said.

[Alan Wheeler]

I know what I would have done. 5 AM, yep MORNING! I would have started up a big yella buldozer and yelled, COMING THROUGH!!!!!

OH.. the wonderful fantasy's

Remeber the flick "The Mask" when Jim Carey's alter ego finds the crooked car mechanics and tells them... "Hang unto your lugnuts... It's time for an overhaul!!" before he shoved a 3 foot length of exhaust pipe up him... but speaking of OT! Nothing exceeds like excess so... here is one for you. I lived in alpine California.. rented the house.. new neighbours plant a fruit tree (huge for a "seedling") well within my side of the boundry.. as a considerate neigbour I inform them... he responds that we can share the fruit then. I shrugged it off and mentioned it in an offhand fashion to the property owners who imediately went on guard... paranoid i thought... no, they were right. This was a semi rural town, we were on a 1.5 acre block hillside. The woman below us was a legal secretary to a known nasty lawyer. Seems in California if you plant a fruit tree across a boudry, as soon as it bears fruit, you have a claim to that part of the property. The tree was situated perfectly to take a strip of land along the long side.. people are not nice out there.. i hate land people! they are everywhere.

BUT... to get back to the narrower subject.. for anyone who has just popped unto this last page, this is all about MARINE surveyors!.. see www.thecoastalpassage.com/rust.html

Cheers