What did we Learn from the 60's?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I have done my homework.

What you do is called the "Nirvana Fallacy". You are comparing the world as it is to what you want it to be, and find it wanting. That is understandable, as the world still has massive room for improvement.
However that was not what I was stating.
I was stating that the state of the world's population has improved massively in the past, and that it is improving at a fast rate. I did not state that the world was a paradise.

You are correct that 1/6 of the world lives in extreme poverty. But does't that actually prove my point?
We come from a world where _everyone_ (literally everyone) lived in extreme poverty.
Nowadays even most Africans have mobile phones, something not even the most powerful king had in 1900....
Don't pretend no progress has been made.

That's just one example. The figures you gave in the rest of your post are correct, and I won't go in to them in detail. However I know these figure too. I do not claim that there is no hunger, poverty or misery in the world. The claim I made is that huge progress is actually being made at eradicating them. And if you did your homework, you would have noticed that Unicef, the World Bank, the United Nations, the World Food Program, and all the other usual three letter agencies whose figures you quote all confirm that progress has been made, and that progress is continually being made.

No sir.
I worked for one of the agencies you mention. I saw first hand how 'progress' does not alter the reality of the figures. It should.

"Nowadays even most Africans have mobile phones, something not even the most powerful king had in 1900....
Don't pretend no progress has been made."

LOL.... and still no food. Enslaved to yet another wondeful invention that entices them and they have to pay for.... carefully controlled by politics and big business..

You state your point is "The claim I made is that huge progress is actually being made at eradicating them."

Real world translation, "We now have helicopters, bigger boats and a better uniform for our relief agencies"

Haitii is a case in point. It could have been solved within a year of the problem. It isnt, it hasnt been and it wont be. Politics.

India: Clean the water, remove the corruption, change the system. It hasnt happened, It will not happen. Politics.

the story goes on. As long as politics runs the world, and it alway has, we will ALWAYS have a poverty stricken world. There is no real intent to change the Status Quo unless there is something in it for them.

The figures show nothing positive. It shows the problem is not being tackled with any meaning or intent.

Politically, it pays to keep a populous in need. That is why the food stamp program in the USA is ending the entire middle class to a lower, reliant status.

"You are comparing the world as it is to what you want it to be, and find it wanting."

I have no say in the world. I do want everyone to have enough to eat, have clean water and a measure of contentment. However, it is only by birthright that I have money, a standard of living and some excess. I cant change that and have no desire to.

But I do question that great strides have been made. I see token gestures only, for which the recipients of that are also very grateful....... but I do not see improvement anywhere on a global scale.

There is no profit in it.

[weavis]

K_V_B

we will not agree on the situation, and I guess its not something we ever will.
I suggest we leave the thrust of our argumentation as is and move on to other things.
Thanks for the discussion.

Did you ever find a boat for yourself?

[sabray]

Why is anyone hungry? At work we throw away 20 45 gallon containers of food a week. We just couldn't eat it all so we have trucks come and haul it away for us. How great is that! Living the good life.


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[weavis]

Originally Posted by sabray

Why is anyone hungry? At work we throw away 20 45 gallon containers of food a week. We just couldn't eat it all so we have trucks come and haul it away for us. How great is that! Living the good life.


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Made me laugh....... in a sad way...
LOL......

[weavis]

I think I was the only person in the 60s that hated Mary Hopkins.
I loved King Crimson.
I loved the Bee Gees.
I loved Julie Driscoll.
I loved the James Gang.
I loved that the Beatles broke up.
I loved banana flavoured ice cream on a stick.

[sabray]

Originally Posted by weavis

Made me laugh....... in a sad way...
LOL......

Unfortunately I started our compost program. It's better then just chucking it all in a landfill. But now we think we are green because it sounds great that we compost our waste. Doesn't touch the real issue that a lunch only cafeteria serving 1000 people throws away 900 gallons of food per week.
Yeah that's sad. Pissed off people with real nice haircuts, no split ends, armed with wax strips are going to rise up and find a better way. Food generation and reducing waste will be critical if we want the next 60s generation to enjoy this place. Hope that the 2060 generation looks back and says those guys,gals, pregnant man with boobs or chick with a mustache people in 2014 rocked.
Trying to be inclusive.


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[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by weavis

I worked for one of the agencies you mention. I saw first hand how 'progress' does not alter the reality of the figures. It should.

So you only saw part of the picture.

We are pre disposed to pessimism. Humans evolved in the savannahs in Africa where not seeing a lion that is there is a more costly mistake to make then seeing a lion that is no there.
So we see lions everywhere.

If you look beyond your pessimistic tendencies the picture you see is of an imperfect world, that is nevertheless making huge strides.
Yes there is hunger in the world. But there is vastly less of it. Hunger and poverty was the norm only a few centuries ago. It no longer is. That is a fact.

But I do question that great strides have been made. I see token gestures only, for which the recipients of that are also very grateful....... but I do not see improvement anywhere on a global scale.

China lifted 500 million people out of poverty in 20 years. I do not see that as a "token" gesture.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by weavis

Did you ever find a boat for yourself?

I'm still looking around

On thing that happened is that I got an opportunity to be part of a startup for the next two years. That would put about another 100000$ in my cruising fund (in the worst case...). So at the moment the cruising plans are a bit on hold. Gives me more time to convince the missus to get along.

In the mean time I'm learning a lot, For example, how to interpret the numbers, and that I really shouldn't bother with most boats build before the turn of the century...

So one thing we learned from the 60ies is that you probably shouldn't buy boats built in that period...

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Well, I live in an economically advanced society, and see no reason for pessimism. But then Switzerland is a bit weird. I think most problems the US has stem from it being too big...

Aye, there's the rub. In double bold type!!

I, for one, although kindred spirits abound, would like to see the immediate deportation of the fastest-growing and baby-creating segments of the American populace. These would be the home-grown urban blacks, the current crop of Mexican immigrants (legal and non), and I believe, by the numbers, the various Muslim groups know a little "somethin' about birthin', Miss Charlotte." [Maybe that reference was the 1860s but still ...]

I'm not looking for a fight here, even though I know I'll get one, I am just agreeing with your point. Nor am I engaged in thread drifting. This is what we learned from the 60s: Give **** away for free, and the handout lines grow faster than ya can keep up with. There will be no recovery from this type of death spiral.

[Delancey]

"Don't drink the Kool Aid" is a reference to the 1978 Jonestown Massacre where some 900 people died or were killed by drinking a cyanide-laced powdered soft drink mix, not a reference to Tom Wolfe's book The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test where some hippies took LSD and had a good time.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

China lifted 500 million people out of poverty in 20 years. I do not see that as a "token" gesture.

I'm not sure exactly what he learned from the sixties other than how to party and dodge combat military service, but it is possible that George W. Bush has done more to enrich the people of China than Mao Zedong.

[goboatingnow]

What we learned from the 60s. Well Formica sucks.

Dave

[sabray]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Aye, there's the rub. In double bold type!!

I, for one, although kindred spirits abound, would like to see the immediate deportation of the fastest-growing and baby-creating segments of the American populace. These would be the home-grown urban blacks, the current crop of Mexican immigrants (legal and non), and I believe, by the numbers, the various Muslim groups know a little "somethin' about birthin', Miss Charlotte." [Maybe that reference was the 1860s but still ...]

I'm not looking for a fight here, even though I know I'll get one, I am just agreeing with your point. Nor am I engaged in thread drifting. This is what we learned from the 60s: Give **** away for free, and the handout lines grow faster than ya can keep up with. There will be no recovery from this type of death spiral.

Yeah! In 1860 some closed mind folk wrote trash and mailed it to the local tabloid. It would read about the same as the waste you write. Except you substitute Mexican and urban black for Irish, German or Brit.
Turns out that migration was good for us pure white trash folk. We learned how to take advantage of their place in a new land and we copulated sometimes even with the migrants.
Thank god we here in the US know how to operate a legal system and jails. That way we are not threatened by competition.
Some things change .Now you can spew a dumb thought without licking a stamp. Most of us have straightened up and no longer drag our knuckles on pavement.
African Americans, Mexicans, Irish Brits, Germans, fins etc... Are now equal in the fabric of the country known as United States of America.we even need you with your archaic thought that reminds us of the swamp we crawled from. I hope my Mexican,African, Finnish granddaughter in 2060 won't have look out the office window to witness your offspring hand pollinating the crops.


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[weavis]

Originally Posted by sabray

Yeah! In 1860 some closed mind folk wrote trash and mailed it to the local tabloid. It would read about the same as the waste you write. Except you substitute Mexican and urban black for Irish, German or Brit.
Turns out that migration was good for us pure white trash folk that knew how to take advantage of their place in a new land did well.
Thank god we here in the US know how to operate a legal system and jails. That way we are not threatened by competition.
Some things change .Now you can spew a dumb thought without licking a stamp. Most of us have straightened up and no longer drag our knuckles on pavement.
African Americans, Mexicans, Irish Brits, Germans, fins etc... Are now equal in the fabric of the country known as United States of America.we even need you with your archaic thought that reminds us of the swamp we crawled from. I hope my Mexican,African, Finnish granddaughter in 2060 won't have look out the office window to witness your offspring hand pollinating the crops.

Office window? is that an euphemism for a FEMA camp?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by weavis

Office window? is that an euphemism for a FEMA camp?

Good Lord! I spelled euphemism correctly!