Spain and Ebola: Discuss

[atoll]

well I guess it was going to happen sooner or later........but it makes you wonder, if they can't stop the spread in hospital conditions what is going to happen when it gets on the streets!

Spanish nurse’s Ebola infection blamed on substandard equipment | World news | The Guardian

Health professionals in Madrid have blamed substandard equipment and a failure to follow protocol for the first case of Ebola to be contracted outside west Africa.

Health authorities announced on Monday that a Spanish nurse at Madrid’s Carlos III hospital who treated a patient repatriated from Sierra Leone had twice tested positive for Ebola.

Her husband had also been admitted to hospital and was in isolation, and a second nurse from the same team that treated both repatriated Ebola victims was also being tested. In this case, the nurse contacted the authorities on Monday complaining of a fever. She was in isolation in the Carlos III Hospital while authorities waited for the test results, a spokesperson for the Madrid regional government said.

Staff at the hospital told El País that the protective suits they were given did not meet World Health Organisation (WHO) standards, which specify that suits must be impermeable and include breathing apparatus. Staff also pointed to latex gloves secured with adhesive tape as an example of how the suits were not impermeable and noted that they did not have their own breathing equipment.

The nurse was part of a team attending to missionary Manuel García Viejo, 69, who died four days after being brought to Carlos III hospital on 20 September. The same team, including the nurse, also treated missionary Miguel Pajares, 75, who was repatriated from Liberia in August and died five days later.

Staff at the hospital said waste from the rooms of both patients was carried out in the same elevator used by all personnel and, in the case of the second patient, the hospital was not evacuated.

The European commission said on Tuesday it had written to the Spanish health minister “to obtain some clarification” on how the nurse had become infected when all EU member states were supposed to have taken measures to prevent transmission.

“There is obviously a problem somewhere,” the commission spokesman Frédéric Vincent said.

Spanish health authorities have said that professionals treating Ebola patients in Spain always follow WHO protocols. The nurse would have entered García Viejo’s room just twice, said Antonio Alemany, from the regional government of Madrid, both times wearing protective equipment.

“We don’t know yet what failed,” Alemany said. “We are investigating the mechanism of infection.”

The nurse was in a stable condition. She had alerted the ministry of a slight fever on 30 September and been checked into a hospital in Alcorcón, on the outskirts of Madrid, with a high fever on Monday.

The nurse, who is married with no children, was transferred to Carlos III hospital early on Tuesday morning.

El Mundo reported that it was the nurse who asked to be tested for Ebola, having to insist repeatedly on being tested before it was done on Monday.

While staff at the Alcorcón hospital were waiting for the test results, the nurse remained in a bed in the emergency room, separated only by curtains from other patients, hospital staff told El Mundo. Their version of events clashes with that of health authorities, who have said the patient was isolated from the first moment.

The woman was on holiday at an unknown location when she began showing symptoms. “We are drawing up a list of all the people she may have been in contact with, including with health professionals at the Alcorcón hospital,” said Alemany, estimating that more than 30 people were being monitored for any sign of symptoms.

In August, Spain became the first European country in the current, fast-spreading outbreak to evacuate patients for treatment. The decision prompted concern among health professionals, who said Spanish hospitals were not adequately equipped to handle Ebola.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by atoll

well I guess it was going to happen sooner or later........but it makes you wonder, if they can't stop the spread in hospital conditions what is going to happen when it gets on the streets!

The US government said we are not to worry. There is little risk of Ebola getting to the US...

Wait. It just did.

The US government said we can handle it yet you look at how easily this could have been spread in the one US incident. The guy who had Ebola, and was contagious, was in an ambulance with a homeless guy. It took quite a few days to find the homeless guy...

We have beggars at major intersections getting money from people who are stopped at traffic lights. The beggar easily contacts 10-20 people per hour for maybe 4-5 hours per day. If the beggar has an infectious illness....

If one of the people who gave money to the beggar gets sick and works as a cashier in a retail store, how many people would they contact say at a peak time?

Some of the beggar's have homes but some are homeless. If the homeless beggar is staying in one of the shelters it would be very easy to spread a communicable disease. Some of the beggars stay here for a few weeks gathering money and then disappear. I assume traveling off to a different city...

The US government says we won't have a problem in the US....

Later,
Dan

[dohenyboy]

And they say it cannot be spread unless there is personal contact.. Yet here, because there was no separate breathing supply, she got infected. That means Ebola can be airborne.


Sent from an undisclosed location on the high seas or from the lounge chair by the pool, you decide.

[weavis]

Well I will be there in 10 days...... I let you know what is happening

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by dohenyboy

And they say it cannot be spread unless there is personal contact.. Yet here, because there was no separate breathing supply, she got infected. That means Ebola can be airborne.


Sent from an undisclosed location on the high seas or from the lounge chair by the pool, you decide.

Actually in the case of the Spanish nurse there was contact. So the claims that the virus is now airborne are not correct. It would have seriously surprised scientists anyway.

On another note, why do so many people behave as if they wanted this to be global disaster?



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[dannc]

Originally Posted by dohenyboy

And they say it cannot be spread unless there is personal contact.. Yet here, because there was no separate breathing supply, she got infected. That means Ebola can be airborne.

This morning I read that the nurse got Ebola after touching her face with a gloved hand that had been in contact with the patient. I would hope that while she was near the patient she had on face shields and she touched her face when taking off personal protective clothing. The article I read, pretty sure it was the Wall Street Journal, did not mention those details, which are kinda critical.

It does show how easy it is for Ebola to spread. A touch to her face was enough to give herself Ebola.

A few years ago the Myth Busters TV program did a show on how easy it was to spread a cold/flu between people. They put a chemical on the "sick" guy and then had people gather and have a dinner party. The chemical would show up under black light and after the "party" was over they lit up the table, glasses, silver ware and the people. The chemical was all of the place even though it had started at one person.

I was reading another report last night that said that for every four known Ebola victims there are six unreported cases.

Later,
Dan

[SaltyMonkey]

They really don't know how this is spread. They're basing their opinions on studies unrelated to this strain. Airborne mutations are one concern, but their biggest concern is that it will mutate into a strain that can keep the host alive longer, and be contagious while symptoms are minor or unnoticeable.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by dohenyboy

And they say it cannot be spread unless there is personal contact.. Yet here, because there was no separate breathing supply, she got infected. That means Ebola can be airborne.


Sent from an undisclosed location on the high seas or from the lounge chair by the pool, you decide.

Whoa. It is not airborne. And never once in the history of virology has a pathogen been observed to change its mode of transmission. See: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/...tober-2014/en/

I lived in India during the plague (1994) and Hong Kong during SARS (2003), so I've seen the panic and hysterical reporting twice already.

Ebola is something to be very concerned about, but not something to panic about.

[Astrid]

panic, as a matter of fact, is one of the worst elements of an outbreak such as this. Fueled by mistaken or miss-information, panic actually aids the spread of a contagious disease. Many people fleeing the plague in the 14th century or fleeing the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic actually took it with them to areas not yet affected. Over reaction and panic go hand in hand with blissful denial that there is a problem. Hopefully western governments, and as far as I can tell from alerts to the medical communities, are taking things seriously while trying to reassure the public.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Whoa. It is not airborne. And never once in the history of virology has a pathogen been observed to change its mode of transmission. See: WHO | What we know about transmission of the Ebola virus among humans

That doesn't mean it hasn't in the past, just that it hasn't been observed, and they do agree that it could be spread through the air in water droplets, also could last up to 90 days outside of a host. Doesn't make me happy.

In fact, bubonic plague (not a virus) DID mutate into pneumonic plague during the Great purges of the mid 1300's, wiping out Europe, literally overnight.

Bottom line, we don't know what this will do or at what state it's in. The K factor is between 1.5 and 2. They're just trying to bring it down and they are waaaaaaay behind.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

That doesn't mean it hasn't in the past, just that it hasn't been observed, and they do agree that it could be spread through the air in water droplets, also could last up to 90 days outside of a host. Doesn't make me happy.

In fact, bubonic plague (not a virus) DID mutate into pneumonic plague during the Great purges of the mid 1300's, wiping out Europe, literally overnight.

Bottom line, we don't know what this will do or at what state it's in. The K factor is between 1.5 and 2. They're just trying to bring it down and they are waaaaaaay behind.

If you're smart enough to know that plague isn't a virus, then you should be smart enough to know that that fact makes a HUGE difference.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by sneuman

If you're smart enough to know that plague isn't a virus, then you should be smart enough to know that that fact makes a HUGE difference.

NO! I was just stating something that occurred. YOUR misleading post failed to mention that the report highlighted that it COULD spread through the air. Your misleading post failed to mention that the key word is OBSERVED. That doesn't remove the possibility it happened in the past or could ever happen, or that it could spread through the air.

Spreading through water droplets vs. airborne equates the same AFAIC. You inhale (or not), you die,

[Draikhyan]

In 2003 I was sent to Thailand for two weeks by my employer. Since 2002 the media dad been reporting about SARS (anyone remember that?). Headlines like "Thousands Dead In Far East" and "Bodies Piling Up In Streets" were the rule.

When I arrived at Schiphol airport about 50% of the people there were wearing mouth masks and it was the same on the plane and at the airport in Bangkok.

However, the moment I left Bangkok airport and took a cab things changed dramatically. People I talked to had no idea was I was talking about. "SARS? What is SARS? Oh that. Yes, there was this one case of SARS in the north of Thailand. A person died."

I spent two weeks in a country that was SARS free (except for that one person up north). No thousands dead. No piles of corpses in the streets. No panic. Just a few dead dogs. Lots of street dogs in Bangkok back then.

That was my eyeopener about media trustworthiness.

It gets better. The day after I arrived back in the Netherlands I got a phone call from my Operations Manager who told me that some concerns had arisen about my return. People were nervous. He asked me not to come to work for another week (SARS' incubation period). When i asked him if i was under quarantine and had to remain at home he said "No, no, you can go anywhere you like, just don't come to work. Stay away from the site. You will get paid and it won't cost you any days."

I really enjoyed that vacation.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

NO! I was just stating something that occurred. YOUR misleading post failed to mention that the report highlighted that it COULD spread through the air. Your misleading post failed to mention that the key word is OBSERVED. That doesn't remove the possibility it happened in the past or could ever happen, or that it could spread through the air.

Spreading through water droplets vs. airborne equates the same AFAIC. You inhale (or not), you die,

Not misleading in the least:


CDC:

"Ebola virus disease is not an airborne infection. Airborne spread among humans implies inhalation of an infectious dose of virus from a suspended cloud of small dried droplets. This mode of transmission has not been observed during extensive studies of the Ebola virus over several decades."

"Theoretically, wet and bigger droplets from a heavily infected individual, who has respiratory symptoms caused by other conditions or who vomits violently, could transmit the virus – over a short distance – to another nearby person. ... On the contrary, good quality studies from previous Ebola outbreaks show that all cases were infected by direct close contact with symptomatic patients."



When you say, categorically (as you did) "Ebola is airborne," it is you who are guilty of spreading misinformation.

[dannc]

The problem with comparing Ebola with SARs, Swine Flu, or other historical outbreaks, is that Ebola *** IS *** different. With the exception of the plague, none of these other illnesses has/had a 50-90% fatality rate. Some of the predicted flu pandemics like Swine Flu just did not happen and/or did not have the expected fatality rates. Thank goodness. Ebola *** IS *** happening, it is spreading, and it is very deadly.

The US government is not even trying to prevent the spread of Ebola to the US.

My family DID catch Swine Flu and it was an a...ss whipping. Thankfully it only lasted about 12-24 hours but it was the second worst illness I have ever had. We caught it on a vacation to Disney World but we did not know what it was until we got back home. As it was, we had to spend a few days in our hotel room dealing with the illness. The Swine Flu had a very distinct cough. We all had the cough and you could hear it all through the Disney parks. You had the cough AFTER the fever so you were no longer contagious but you had to wonder how many people were walking around spreading the illness. It was very eerie hearing those coughs over the Disney background noise...

Later,
Dan