First Mate or Admiral

[Pelagic]

Browning.....just remember..

..."Labels are put there to help the uninformed find something"

You are who you are and your wife is the same..... Simply use the term that each of you is most comfortable/proud of being labeled as.

Let the pigeons dig their own holes.

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by Browning

In a book that my Wife and I am reading to prepare her for sailing with me over horizon one day, there is a very strong statement that, if the wife is not the skipper, one should never call her "First Mate". I don't understand this statement. What is derogatory in calling her first mate?

Because it somehow indicates the existence of another wife (mate)?






Full disclosure:
My wife is the Captain - licensed.
I'm the First Mate {And Chief Engineer, electrician, deckhand, bilge wiper...... }

[scotty c-m]

My wife is the "In-Flight Psychiatrist'

[Hudson Force]

I think it's important to note that words don't have the same connotation in all areas and among all cultures.

We once had a guest from California with us at a restaurant in Savannah, Georgia and the waitress address her as "Honey". Our friend said that she was offended by this condescending behavior. We had to take some time to explain that this is simply a friendly mannerism common to the South and not demeaning at all.

In my cruising area the term captain is used with casual recognition for anyone operating a boat. Skipper and first mate are rarely heard. "Admiral", for the wife, has mixed reviews. Some accept it as humor and some see it as condescending, but it's not normally presented at a title of respect.

It's difficult to debate the use of these words on an international forum when they have different meanings in different locations.

[carstenb]

Mark J is perfectly correct. Both my wife and I are the Skipper. Legal formalities in some areas do require 1 person to be listed as the master of the vessel and in our case it is me. Only because I got my Yachtmaster Ocean certificate 1 year before she did.

We also carry a notarized document that says in the event of my disability or death, she becomes the master and has the right to sail, sell or have the vessel transported anywhere she pleases.


I've never called her the Admiral, and I doubt if she'd like it. She does like terms like sweetheart, honey, at an appropriate time (not when it is blowing a gale and she is reefing the mainsail)


Never have used the word Captain, since that is a true rank that needs to be earned in the military or similar

[weavis]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Never have used the word Captain, since that is a true rank that needs to be earned in the military or similar

Captain of industry.
Captain of his own ship.

Funny how that works. The term Doctor really only applies to Doctorate holders.

Everything gets changed by local and colloquial usage.........

In my experience of living in the States, There is a love for titles. Passing the 6 pack seemed to allow everyone to call themselves Captain. A number of my friends all got promotions when passing the course to take passengers out fishing in Florida

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by weavis

Captain of industry.
Captain of his own ship.

Funny how that works. The term Doctor really only applies to Doctorate holders.

Everything gets changed by local and colloquial usage.........

In my experience of living in the States, There is a love for titles. Passing the 6 pack seemed to allow everyone to call themselves Captain. A number of my friends all got promotions when passing the course to take passengers out fishing in Florida

Titles are cheap, I know several business(wo)men who term themselves CEO, although they only have 10 or 15 employees.


You can be a Captain of Industry or Captain of your ship - but these are terms not titles.


But you're right - lot's of boat skippers with a six pack term themselves "Captain"..


I suppose it is OK to use the word Captain if you are skippering a boat as a commercial skipper and you have paid crew under you

[weavis]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Titles are cheap, I know several business(wo)men who term themselves CEO, although they only have 10 or 15 employees.


You can be a Captain of Industry or Captain of your ship - but these are terms not titles.


But you're right - lot's of boat skippers with a six pack term themselves "Captain"..


I suppose it is OK to use the word Captain if you are skippering a boat as a commercial skipper and you have paid crew under you

When I was at night school at the nautical college in Fleetwood UK, doing the theoretical part of the yachtmasters, I took a look at the more advanced course syllabus , ie ocean Masters and pre commercial requirements. It made me pass gas in a blue light! Hard? oh yes.......... I thought what I was doing was difficult, but moving up the ladder it became proper hard.

In my experience, anyone with a licence from yachtmasters (ocean) and credentials, and with some experience, is worthy of the professional title 'Captain' because they should be able to direct the workings of ANY vessel safely and efficiently, and with more understanding of commercial regs etc.

Im sure that most dont use it and would feel vaguely embarrassed if flung in their direction, however.......... you buggers deserve to be recognised in terms of a skillset.

Jes sayin'

[StuM]

When I was a Captain in the Army, I often flew in light observation helicopters piloted by a Lieutenant. I was a Captain, but he was the Captain.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by StuM

When I was a Captain in the Army, I often flew in light observation helicopters piloted by a Lieutenant. I was a Captain, but he was the Captain.

I was a Captain in the forces.
My company Sargeant was the real boss. Me a 20 something, and him with 23 years of combat experience.
He was the consumate professional. Guided me through everything.

Favourite quotes to me from him.

"You could do that sir, but being as you learned from a book, we would be digging yer captainship bits and pieces and putting them in a plastic bag to send home to yer poor old mother"

"Begging yer captains permission to speak freely sir. That decision is bollocks on a silver plate sir. I just got the squad into shape sir and would prefer to keep them around a while".

"Which page of 'how to make a f****d up decision' did you get that idea from sir."

"How many books of Green Shield stamps did you have to give to get your rank sir".

"Thems real bullets sir, my suggestion is to put your head a little closer to your arse".

It has nothing to do with the subject....... just memories.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by weavis

When I was at night school at the nautical college in Fleetwood UK, doing the theoretical part of the yachtmasters, I took a look at the more advanced course syllabus , ie ocean Masters and pre commercial requirements. It made me pass gas in a blue light! Hard? oh yes.......... I thought what I was doing was difficult, but moving up the ladder it became proper hard.

In my experience, anyone with a licence from yachtmasters (ocean) and credentials, and with some experience, is worthy of the professional title 'Captain' because they should be able to direct the workings of ANY vessel safely and efficiently, and with more understanding of commercial regs etc.

Im sure that most dont use it and would feel vaguely embarrassed if flung in their direction, however.......... you buggers deserve to be recognised in terms of a skillset.

Jes sayin'

Thanks for the accolades - personally I prefer to be known as The High and Mighty Lord Pope of the Universe.


My wife doesn't quite see this potential in me however, so skipper is probably as high as I'll ever get.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I think it's important to note that words don't have the same connotation in all areas and among all cultures.

We once had a guest from California with us at a restaurant in Savannah, Georgia and the waitress address her as "Honey". Our friend said that she was offended by this condescending behavior. We had to take some time to explain that this is simply a friendly mannerism common to the South and not demeaning at all.

In my cruising area the term captain is used with casual recognition for anyone operating a boat. Skipper and first mate are rarely heard. "Admiral", for the wife, has mixed reviews. Some accept it as humor and some see it as condescending, but it's not normally presented at a title of respect.

It's difficult to debate the use of these words on an international forum when they have different meanings in different locations.

You are entirely correct. Words do have cultural meaning and significance.

In this neck of the woods 'captain' refers to the person in charge of the vessel and all vessels, not just big military ships. Yes, you get 'captains' of rank in the military, but you also get Captains in the Salvation Army and Captains of sports groups and captains in schools. It's not exclusively used for military, or maritime qualifications. Not here.

Admiral, used as a term of endearment I've heard among the older sea farer community but despite me being 53 I don't think I'd get away with it. Though I get away with calling my wife the boss, but I think that's more because she considers she is the boss. And I'm not about to dispute that until we are both beyond menopause, many years away.

No matter who is crewing on my boat I'm the captain, the person in charge, the skipper, however I do use a certain level of consultation to which I'll conclude a decision on. (Then run it past the boss for her approval )

[captain58sailin]

When my Wife visits the boat, she is called "The Boss" and it is spoken with respect and humor by all including me. The first time I heard the term "Admiral" referring to ones mate, was here. I always thought the English were mad for titles at least that is the reputation they have. Personally unless dealing with port officials, I could care less if I am addressed as "Captain", "Skipper", or hey you fat MF!, as long as they don't call me late for supper. If you need a hat that says "Captain" to inform everyone who is in charge, then you have a real problem.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

When my Wife visits the boat, she is called "The Boss" and it is spoken with respect and humor by all including me. The first time I heard the term "Admiral" referring to ones mate, was here. I always thought the English were mad for titles at least that is the reputation they have. Personally unless dealing with port officials, I could care less if I am addressed as "Captain", "Skipper", or hey you fat MF!, as long as they don't call me late for supper. If you need a hat that says "Captain" to inform everyone who is in charge, then you have a real problem.

I get called so many names during the day at work being called anything civil is pleasant.

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by Badsanta

You are the captain your wife is the admiral don't lower her rank to a first mate.

I think that when a wife or female cruising partner is referred to as "admiral" it is either: a term of endearment, a tongue in cheek thing meaning that somehow the husband shows deference to her in some matters (such as has been mentioned by some where they will cruise, how long they will stay, etc.) and wants her to be happy even if it means doing things her way, or a not so subtle suggestion that she can be a bitch on wheels and if you don't do what she wants life aboard will be hell and you will wish you had stayed home. I guess you would have to judge each instance by the tone of voice and inflection, or whatever you may know about the couple involved.

My husband has never referred to me as admiral and I would not wish him to do so. But then I don't generally call him captain either, although that is precisely what he is, without question or debate. If we have to define our roles to anyone I would definitely state my position as either first mate or crew. I already know he loves me. He defers to me in matters that he knows are important to me, as I do the same for him. And if I ever thought that I was being domineering and bitchy enough to be called "admiral" in that other sense I would be trying to figure out how to fix that, immediately.

If the female partner truly assumes the role of skipper, either all the time or on some rotating basis, then perhaps they are co-skippers or co-captains, or you would refer to each differently depending on what role they are in at a given point in time. I have heard some couples say that whoever has the helm is acting in the capacity of skipper/captain. That seems like a great system for some. I take the helm but would still never consider myself skipper because regardless of where I am standing, if the $h!# hits the fan I am still going to defer to Lance's judgement and decisions. That's just because he has so much more experience than me and I haven't built that level of confidence yet. Hopefully after we have been cruising awhile I will. But I will probably always see him as the skipper regardless. It's worked for 34 years.

But truly, unless it is a term of endearment, I can't think of any reason to call a woman admiral.