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Old 09-08-2016, 22:16   #16
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
Jason:

Thanks for the clarification on Constructive intent. Interesting read. It just seems that one could infer that your "intent" for this scenario is not to construct a firearm in a state which does not allow you to have one, but to show your intent to not have a functional firearm without going through a laborious process to put it together.

What do people do that are traveling through? Are you not allowed to stay in a hotel or Marina in that state?


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What you say makes perfect sense. What harmful intent could you have with a firearm if your firearm is in pieces and inoperable?

I wish the police worked that way. They are unlikely to give you a free pass with a disassembled gun given that you could assemble it after they left.

I travel through NY and NJ by boat and by car. I don't spend a lot of time there. I anchor out and keep quiet. By car I have stayed over night in NJ under an unusual circumstance but usually we travel straight through.


I suspect what happened with Mr. Antwerpen is that the CG asked if he was licensed to carry the firearms. If he gave them an expired permit, the CG might have called the NYPD. NYPD didn't give him a free pass because the guns were locked away and Mr. Antwepen was polite and posed no threat.

What is interesting is that if Mr. A were from Vermont he wouldn't have had a license and under FOPA he would have been legal, but because he was coming from MD, a state that requires licenses, he was arrested because it was expired.

I am not a lawyer but this is my take on why Mr. A might have been arrested.

Of course they can arrest you anytime they want.
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Old 09-08-2016, 23:54   #17
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
I have wondered if you are traveling through a state that does not have reciprocity with your home state and you spend the night in a hotel, (or Marina in the case of a boat) have a gun, take it apart and store the parts in different locations within a vehicle, locked up and inaccessible in multiple pelican cases, if you would be considered to be carrying a firearm?

Also, how would you reply if asked if you are carrying a firearm if stopped by the Police, Coast Guard or other law enforcement official in the above situation? Technically you are carrying parts that constitute a firearm once put back together


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Hang on ill just spend 10 minutes assembling my gun from various parts stored in different places then ill defend myself...
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:21   #18
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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Originally Posted by J Clark H356 View Post
I have wondered if you are traveling through a state that does not have reciprocity with your home state and you spend the night in a hotel, (or Marina in the case of a boat) have a gun, take it apart and store the parts in different locations within a vehicle, locked up and inaccessible in multiple pelican cases, if you would be considered to be carrying a firearm?

Also, how would you reply if asked if you are carrying a firearm if stopped by the Police, Coast Guard or other law enforcement official in the above situation? Technically you are carrying parts that constitute a firearm once put back together


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If someone was caught with all the parts of a dirty bomb, taken apart and hid in separate cases in their vehicle, would you think...
How considerate of them, they are just passing through and trying to follow our laws?
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:27   #19
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

I only have two pistols, a Ruger 22 target pistol and the Beretta 92F that I carried in Bosnia and SWA etc. The Beretta for instance breaks down into the handle , the slide and the barrel and magazine, give me 10 sec and I have it assembled and function checked and loaded.
It takes a very short time to reassemble a well designed pistol.

M-16 I guess maybe 30 sec? I did not time him

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Old 10-08-2016, 12:57   #20
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

Canada is the problem. My department sent two deputies (one of them a very good friend of mine) to Canada to pick up a dangerous fugitive wanted for murder. When they got off the plane, in uniform, with their weapons, the Canadians freaked out, and we were afraid for a while we would have to get the State Department involved to get them back.

They ended up putting them on the plane with the fugitive, without their weapons (which they put in a locked box in the hold of the plane) and refused to let them handcuff him. This, one of the meanest and most cruel murderers we ever had, and a quite large and powerful man. Both deputies said they worried the whole trip about what would happen if he decided to overpower them and take over the plane.

That is my sole personal experience with weapons and Canada. I don't think I would take one there.
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Old 10-08-2016, 13:59   #21

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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

"have a gun, take it apart and store the parts in different locations " Spoken as someone who has no familiarity with firearms and does not own one, obviously. Under US federal law, there is always one or more specific parts (typically the "receiver") which are defined as the firearm. Typically engraved with the serial number, and it is a separate crime to have that removed or absent. So taking the firearm apart and saying you just have "machine parts" (a long standing euphemism for weapons) is just going to get you locked up faster and deeper. The guys who lock you up will be quick to point out, ignorance of the law is no defense. Firearms regulation in the US is fragmented and illogical, and often illegal, but that's what it is. I can't help thinking the in order to get a CCL in Florida, they used to require a class. And the class used to make it Real Damned Clear that you needed to know the laws, and if you were traveling, to know the laws where you were going. Join the NRA, get the magazine, read the ad, there's an attorney who sells a CD or book for about $15 that covers ALL the "carry" laws in all 50 states. And probably the other 11 insular possessions as well.
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Old 10-08-2016, 19:56   #22
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

If you have an iPhone get the CCW app. It will provide the most important information needed for any US area based on the carry license you have. One of the items covered is whether or not you have the "duty to inform" any officer that pulls you over. If you don't have to inform then just keep your mouth shut.


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Old 11-08-2016, 08:52   #23
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

As an ex police officer you are for sure going to have a heap of problems with handguns in Canada. You either not have any guns in Canada or don't travel here.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:04   #24
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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What you say makes perfect sense. What harmful intent could you have with a firearm if your firearm is in pieces and inoperable?
Run trafficking is routinely done by disassembling firearms, and mailing via different points of origin - border inspection usually catches them by the fact the addresses are the same or they get lucky and it is x-rayed.

If you live near a border state, the straw purchase/gun trafficking was/is definitely a huge problem in the southern states.

I have a Sig P290 - it doesn't take more than 3 minutes to fully assemble it. With the AR - I can with a fully disassembled upper and lower, if I laid out my tools in advance and have a nice large table, it'll be ready in about 20 minutes.

I'm not one to defend idiotic police policy - but the coast guard is hardly in the wrong when it comes to firearms being transported without proper documentation. People assume that the 2nd amendment & open carry/permissive states' policies extend beyond borders, it simply isn't a natural right.

In re Canada - funny story, the former police chief back home just got nabbed in Canada trying to smuggle a handgun. Ooops.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:38   #25
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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I'm not one to defend idiotic police policy - but the coast guard is hardly in the wrong when it comes to firearms being transported without proper documentation. People assume that the 2nd amendment & open carry/permissive states' policies extend beyond borders, it simply isn't a natural right.
It most definitely is a natural right - it's just one that is regularly infringed in many places.

And federal law explicitly overrides state and local laws, for those travelling with firearms, provided that certain requirements are met:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A

Quote:
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driverís compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
So, if you have a firearm onboard, and you unload it and lock it away while travelling through New York or New Jersey, you should be within the law. Unfortunately, you will probably have to go in front of a judge to prove that.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:52   #26
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

I don't want to get into a long philosophy debate re natural law, suffice to say by definition, it is universal and not subject to custom, culture. When you can't even get your own countrymen to agree, it isn't a natural right.

As for the citation above, I'll only mention that transporting vehicle is defined in the definition section as being restricted to motor vehicles, which don't involve boats and vessels. I'd be very careful to see what the legal authority the coast guard is using, as with all things marine, i don't think it's so straightforward to claim local 2nd amendment interpreted rights while outside of your home state, on a vessel, transiting through local waters.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:12   #27
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

The statute doesn't say "vehicle", it says "transporting".

There have been incidents in which individuals drove to a NYC airport, with their firearm properly stored, declared it at the counter for transport in their checked luggage, as the law requires, and been arrested and charged by the NY Port Authority. The courts have found the individuals innocent, and declared that the provisions of FOPA apply.

But NY has continued to arrest and prosecute anyone they encounter with a gun.

There is no question in my mind that NY is in the wrong on this, but if you're traveling though the area, that'd not be much consolation should they decide to arrest you.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:38   #28
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

You can do the Great Loop without entering Canada if you want to, but you will be missing the best parts of the trip. I don't think you can avoid New York.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:39   #29
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

Just got off the phone with the ATF. Federally a boat is a vehicle, although no one can speak for the individual states and how they might define vehicle.

So, I drove the 8 miles over the border to the NY State Police and asked them for their take on FOPA. Told them I might be going west in along Island Sound and down the East River. They said, No problem. Keep them unloaded and locked in a case with the ammunition separate.

Everyone is applauding me for trying to follow the law.
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Old 11-08-2016, 14:37   #30
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Re: Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws & regs?

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Just got off the phone with the ATF. Federally a boat is a vehicle, although no one can speak for the individual states and how they might define vehicle.

So, I drove the 8 miles over the border to the NY State Police and asked them for their take on FOPA. Told them I might be going west in along Island Sound and down the East River. They said, No problem. Keep them unloaded and locked in a case with the ammunition separate.

Everyone is applauding me for trying to follow the law.
It's possible that the NY Port Authority has started abiding by FOPA, but if they've changed, it's been relatively recently.

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