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Old 18-03-2014, 14:55   #106
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Originally Posted by mottseng View Post
A criteria for having the ability to reason is knowing right from wrong, good from bad and the ability to reason through argument and make behaviour changes as a result.

I am unaware of any animal, dog or dolphin doing this.
Whose criterion? I think you are making this up as you go along. (The word is criterion in the singular, by the way)

Bringing what strikes me as awareness of morality into the argument is laughable. I seriously doubt if any credible animal behaviorist uses that as a criterion. Based on that criterion, a goodly portion of humanity would be deemed incapable of reason. Most of the sociopaths of whom I am aware are VERY capable of reasoning.

Anyone who has ever tried to keep racoons out of their garbage can or squirrels out of their bird feeder has prima facie evidence of the reasoning ability of some critters.
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Old 18-03-2014, 15:14   #107
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

If you are a wild raven and you have porcupine quills in your face. Do you say to yourself I am a raven and cannot think therefore I must stay with them in my face for the rest of my days, feeling a bit prickly. Or, do I fly down to those humans over there and see if they will help me.

Of course, being a raven you cannot think or reason therefore this video did not happen.

Raven comes to humans for help. [VIDEO]

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Old 18-03-2014, 15:15   #108
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Because they are intelligent? Now we will get another thread drift no doubt from people who see no fun in that comment.

Coops.

Probably, sorry I just couldn't help myself.

I think the devil made me write it! 😉
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Old 18-03-2014, 15:19   #109
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Probably, sorry I just couldn't help myself.

I think the devil made me write it! 😉
Hope that we do not get a missive from the religious dolphins asking for equal thread time to argue their case against the evolution believing dolphins..

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Old 18-03-2014, 15:37   #110
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Hope that we do not get a missive from the religious dolphins asking for equal thread time to argue their case against the evolution believing dolphins..



Coops.

👍

We had a really big pod of dolphins travel with us for about five miles a few weeks back as we traveled from Bequia to St. Lucia. It was a really incredible experience! They departed before we had a chance to discuss evolution though. 😚
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Old 18-03-2014, 15:55   #111
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

look at the bright side - maybe they departed before deciding to gang rape you!
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Old 18-03-2014, 17:15   #112
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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How do you know for sure they don't believe in religion?

Until you can communicate with them you do not know this for certain.


That illuminates the basic issue at play here. If one desires to use science as a declarative tool then it's incumbent upon them to let the science provide conclusions and not the other way around. At our current state of progression along the arc of knowledge, whats going on in the minds of 'others' represents an unknowable. Making declarative conclusions about the currently unknowable is abject silliness since the science has yet to allow for a scientific conclusion. History is littered with 'supposed' scientists who failed to heed this basic principle and insisted we simply accept their conclusion instead of waiting for actual science to deliver a scientific conclusion. Less than a hundred years ago, 'scientists' promised that smoking wasn't harmful. Science has since proven them incorrect, just as it had the flat earthers when they made such declarative conclusions due to not being able to comprehend that the species path along the arc of knowledge had not progressed enough to allow for such declarative conclusions.

The only pertinent fact at play here is nobody knows just whats going on in the mind of another....Yet. And declarative conclusions, both for & against, are decidedly premature. Sadly that 'Grey' area poses great consternation for those who MUST see the world through a singularly black an white prism. For them, the unknown is scary and they are drawn to make conclusions which science has yet to provide simply to avoid being mired in that spooky scary grey area.


And for some much needed levity:

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Old 18-03-2014, 18:04   #113
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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That illuminates the basic issue at play here. If one desires to use science as a declarative tool then it's incumbent upon them to let the science provide conclusions and not the other way around. At our current state of progression along the arc of knowledge, whats going on in the minds of 'others' represents an unknowable. Making declarative conclusions about the currently unknowable is abject silliness since the science has yet to allow for a scientific conclusion. History is littered with 'supposed' scientists who failed to heed this basic principle and insisted we simply accept their conclusion instead of waiting for actual science to deliver a scientific conclusion. Less than a hundred years ago, 'scientists' promised that smoking wasn't harmful. Science has since proven them incorrect, just as it had the flat earthers when they made such declarative conclusions due to not being able to comprehend that the species path along the arc of knowledge had not progressed enough to allow for such declarative conclusions.

The only pertinent fact at play here is nobody knows just whats going on in the mind of another....Yet. And declarative conclusions, both for & against, are decidedly premature. Sadly that 'Grey' area poses great consternation for those who MUST see the world through a singularly black an white prism. For them, the unknown is scary and they are drawn to make conclusions which science has yet to provide simply to avoid being mired in that spooky scary grey area.


And for some much needed levity:

Yeah, what he said, minus the superlative adjectives.
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Old 18-03-2014, 18:55   #114
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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look at the bright side - maybe they departed before deciding to gang rape you!

Yep, that was a definite plus! 😉😚

IMHO male dolphins, like most men are, are good and caring creatures but every once in a while there is a bad apple -- man, dolphin, manatee, dog (humping your leg). I think I'll take my chances with the dolphins, manatees and dogs.

P.S. There is a reason we have two cats on board instead of dogs 😈!
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Old 18-03-2014, 18:56   #115
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
That illuminates the basic issue at play here. If one desires to use science as a declarative tool then it's incumbent upon them to let the science provide conclusions and not the other way around. At our current state of progression along the arc of knowledge, whats going on in the minds of 'others' represents an unknowable. Making declarative conclusions about the currently unknowable is abject silliness since the science has yet to allow for a scientific conclusion. History is littered with 'supposed' scientists who failed to heed this basic principle and insisted we simply accept their conclusion instead of waiting for actual science to deliver a scientific conclusion. Less than a hundred years ago, 'scientists' promised that smoking wasn't harmful. Science has since proven them incorrect, just as it had the flat earthers when they made such declarative conclusions due to not being able to comprehend that the species path along the arc of knowledge had not progressed enough to allow for such declarative conclusions.

The only pertinent fact at play here is nobody knows just whats going on in the mind of another....Yet. And declarative conclusions, both for & against, are decidedly premature. Sadly that 'Grey' area poses great consternation for those who MUST see the world through a singularly black an white prism. For them, the unknown is scary and they are drawn to make conclusions which science has yet to provide simply to avoid being mired in that spooky scary grey area.


And for some much needed levity:


Unfortunately our internet connection isn't strong enough to see the video, but thanks for 'getting it'.

Robyn
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Old 18-03-2014, 18:57   #116
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Yeah, what he said, minus the superlative adjectives.

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Old 18-03-2014, 20:10   #117
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

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Unfortunately our internet connection isn't strong enough to see the video, but thanks for 'getting it'.

Robyn
Mine as well. But I believe I know and have seen the video clip already.
I think it is difficulty to resolve a discussion around the ability of dolphins and other animals to show higher level cognitive processes is because some people believe intelligence, reasoning, empathy and morality are objective processes that can be clearly defined and absolute. You have the ability or you don't. When in fact they lie on a continuum, with most animals showing some level of the attribute.

Getting back to the OP's original point about reasoning and the "look" in the dolphins eyes. I think the jury has decided. These animals do have many high level cognitive processes, not as high as humans but definitely sufficient in order to communicate and and even bond with humans in some cases.

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Old 18-03-2014, 22:30   #118
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

Just a few links to information on Dolphin intelligence.

Bottlenose dolphins can use learned vocal labels to address each other

Animal intelligence now irrefutable: Bottlenose dolphins call each other by name

As to reasoning, I've found that many humans do very little reasoning in their day to day life's. Many seem to be simply responding to external stimuli.

But Dolphins have an ID/ego. They think, there for they are. They recognize themselves in mirrors, remember other dolphins from 20 years ago, have their own language and can learn and understand language from humans, even though their tonal range is generally well above human range of hearing.

Not to mention gorillas sign language Koko (gorilla) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To say that only humans can reason is highly arrogant and illogical. I would say that people that believe that show faulty reasoning and may only be stating a belief.

Perhaps though I can be swayed with studies that show dolphins are incapable of reasoning, don't have any language and can't learn to communicate with humans. To say that dolphins can be aggressive, rape and kill can not be construed to be non-reasoning, as Humans are also very aggressive, kill and rape.

No I don't think a dolphin will come up with a unified field theory, but then neither would most humans.

Just saying it isn't so, is hardly an argument.
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Old 19-03-2014, 14:40   #119
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

Next you are all going to tell me that you believe 911 was a government conspiracy or there were other gunmen in the kennedy killing or Bin Laden isn't dead and they didn't dump his body in the deep?????

As I said before we can agree to disagree on the reasoning issue.
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Old 19-03-2014, 14:51   #120
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Re: Dolphin Asks Diver For help

I do not think that we are trying to tell you anything. I started the thread just with a pleasant video which folks enjoyed and then you came in with your opinions and the first thing that you said was that we were all on crack.

Your posts since have been defending your stance, so saying that you agree to disagree after once again indicating, in your last post, that you think all that disagree with you are lunatics, is not an indication that you mean that.

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