Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by Therapy

somebody please orient me.

I google mapped and see all sorts of places that seem possible.

Where is this place?

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=orien...gl=us&t=h&z=14

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

In most places there is not free trash removal, showers, toilets (with or without toilet paper), pumpouts, water, fuel spill cleanup, etc. for cruisers. And there already is a requirement to pay for cleanup of illegal spills. If a municipality chooses to provide some of these things for free, its usually because they've decided there is an economic benefit to it. That's because liveaboards do pay for a lot more than groceries. Don't assume every liveaboard is a derelict penny pincher. Most are paying taxes and using a lot fewer services than you are.

Exactly!

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Here I am suffering in 80 degree F with low humidity and abundant sunshine. Plus I'm not paying one cent to anchor.

And, ever since I came to Texas I've been sweltering in 90 degrees plus, high humidity days! The benefit has been my boat is the only boat at anchor, holding is good, the views acceptible and well sheltered. An occasional train sounding its horn as it goes through town reminds me of the night I was here in '05 (when Rita came through) and dreamed I was standing on the bow in thick fog with that same sound in the distance. No anti-live aboard sentiment here, cause there ain't any but me. Instead, I'm sort of a celebrity for what I've accomplished on my small boat. Much different feeling than being denigrated by other marina type boaters because they see 'us' as preventing them from having the 'best' anchorages on the weekends. Of course for some, 'us' could be another marina weekender anchoring in a spot someone else feels more 'entitled' to possess. I wonder how many can, or really try to tell the difference? Makes no difference, because when the boom falls guess who gets hurt?

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by CatInHand

As a landlubber that lives on an island, I can give you my perspective on live-aboards in the harbor.

My taxes pay for your trash removal, your showers, your toilets, your toilet paper, your pumpouts, your water, your fuel spills, your police calls, your rescues (if needed), your fireboats, etc.

Yes, you hike up the hill to buy groceries, but that's about it. If you would like to pay a monthly fee towards maintaining the facilities that you use, and agree to pay the full cost of any cleanup associated with your boat, I'm fine with you staying.

Eagle Harbor does that by charging a monthly fee to boats that anchor for months in a designated area. Your boat also must pass some criteria for seaworthiness and such.

So, y'know, come join us. Just pay for your stay.

This guy pretty much has it right, but when you look at the taxes paid by waterfront owners no reasonable rate could be charged to the boaters to make them happy. In some respects a city "sanctioned" mooring field can go a long way to making everyone mostly happy.

the one we have here in St Aug seems to be doing a pretty good job and keeping everyone happy. Major issue is the "bum" boats anchored just past the city line and availing themselves of all mentioned county services at the launch ramps.

FL has no tax on groceries so the actual amount contributed towards any services are minimal.

I think the vet thing is a BS Red herring. Good enough for him to say US citizen in my book.

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by Wrong

And, ever since I came to Texas I've been sweltering in 90 degrees plus, high humidity days! The benefit has been my boat is the only boat at anchor, holding is good, the views acceptible and well sheltered. An occasional train sounding its horn as it goes through town reminds me of the night I was here in '05 (when Rita came through) and dreamed I was standing on the bow in thick fog with that same sound in the distance. No anti-live aboard sentiment here, cause there ain't any but me. Instead, I'm sort of a celebrity for what I've accomplished on my small boat. Much different feeling than being denigrated by other marina type boaters because they see 'us' as preventing them from having the 'best' anchorages on the weekends. Of course for some, 'us' could be another marina weekender anchoring in a spot someone else feels more 'entitled' to possess. I wonder how many can, or really try to tell the difference? Makes no difference, because when the boom falls guess who gets hurt?

I have been thinking of moving my boat down to TX. Sounds like the area your in is a lot more welcoming.

[Wrong]

[QUOTE=Captain Bill;1339839]

Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing

I agree that everyone has the right to use waters in the public trust, but that means everyone. It seems to me that you three are denying everyone elses right to use the very limied space behind the breakwater.
It's very much like the town's boat parking lot. Just like any other public parking lot sometimes all the spaces will be occupied and you'll have to park elsewhere. I think people have the right to complain when every public spot is now permanently occupied by an RV that someone is living in. This excludes others from enjoying their legitimate right to use this public space. Those of us who have been there know that the outer harbor is no place to be on a blustery day or to dinghy in from when the wind is blowing 20 from the southwest. When I had my boat near there I would occasionally drop the hook in he inner harbor for just a few hours but now I can't. As the old saying goes, your right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins. I suggest sir that your exclusive use of this very limited space is impacting the rights of others. That is why people are complaining and legitimately so.

I believe the OP pointed out that he is anchored in a shoal area. So, in reality how many boaters can even anchor where he is? Isn't this in a sense more about his and other boatowners simply being there than actually interfering with a significant number of boat owners/complaintants. Seems too, the main source of heat is from people ashore who may not even own boats. Is the bay/harbour theirs? Or legally does the 'community's' reach end at some easily determined extent? Is the community overreaching? And, if you are on a boat does that make you any less a member of the community? Who assigns these rights and determines whether or not you are a member, or as one poster said "a bum".

There is a huge 'us and them' mentality that always displays when complaints about anchor outs, live aboards or what have you exists.

There are some overly harsh judgements being made in this thread by posters about people they've never met, don't know and who's boats I presume they've never been on. Who ever said a boat must be pretty? As long as it floats, is not listing, shows the necessary lights and it's owner has not committed a crime, the owner has a right to be left alone.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=orien...gl=us&t=h&z=14

Yea, I found that.
Where is the spot you are talking about?
Raccoon Creek?

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Yea, I found that.
Where is the spot you are talking about?
Raccoon Creek?

yes that is where the main harbor is

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing

I have been thinking of moving my boat down to TX. Sounds like the area your in is a lot more welcoming.

Did I neglect to say there is no dinghy landing although the town has plans to put in a boat dock in about five years? Sure. And did I neglect to say when I suggested to a city employee that in the meanwhile it would be great if they could build/place a small dinghy dock how he replied? He said "let me tell you a little secret, we really don't want boaters coming ashore here..." All the usual 'liability' excuses, blah, blah, blah.

One boat at anchor known to be passing through, leaving soon is tolerable. If there was ever a sign even one was anchored and establishing residence the 'good 'ol boy' system would go into high gear and cousin Jim the sheriff would pay you a visit. Won't matter the charges are bogus, you didn't resist arrest or assault cousin Jim. You'd be lucky to avoid ending up in a bayou somewhere... Just sayin...

[svseachange]

We were looking forward to visiting Oriental. Much less likely now. I don't want to stop there knowing a poor person was kicked out to make way for us.

[GothVanhellsing]

[QUOTE=Wrong;1339883]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I believe the OP pointed out that he is anchored in a shoal area. So, in reality how many boaters can even anchor where he is? Isn't this in a sense more about his and other boatowners simply being there than actually interfering with a significant number of boat owners/complaintants. Seems too, the main source of heat is from people ashore who may not even own boats. Is the bay/harbour theirs? Or legally does the 'community's' reach end at some easily determined extent? Is the community overreaching? And, if you are on a boat does that make you any less a member of the community? Who assigns these rights and determines whether or not you are a member, or as one poster said "a bum".

There is a huge 'us and them' mentality that always displays when complaints about anchor outs, live aboards or what have you exists.

There are some overly harsh judgements being made in this thread by posters about people they've never met, don't know and who's boats I presume they've never been on. Who ever said a boat must be pretty? As long as it floats, is not listing, shows the necessary lights and it's owner has not committed a crime, the owner has a right to be left alone.

Thank you for seeing the point in my letter I have even said I am moving soon. I love Waterway guy's parroting the views of his friends Ben and Debby from here in town, without really knowing any facts. The truth is I am moving my boat because after 4 months of what was clearly defamation, false accusations, and slander, One of the Town board members tried something new and ground breaking, He asked me politely if I could move. Think about that for a little bit. 4 months not a single person tried that, and now they are talking about writing new laws.

[El Rubio]

Originally Posted by Freerider

I get a real kick out of Americans complaining about other people using up their tax dollars.

This coming from a country that spends in the $650 billion range on their military budget.

Worried about paying for a sailors trash removal? Hilarious!

We complain about those dollars too when they're wasted. What people here are complaining about are local taxes which are easier to notice waste. These taxes are not spent on defense, that's federal taxes.

[Captain Bill]

[QUOTE=Wrong;1339883]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I believe the OP pointed out that he is anchored in a shoal area. So, in reality how many boaters can even anchor where he is? Isn't this in a sense more about his and other boatowners simply being there than actually interfering with a significant number of boat owners/complaintants. Seems too, the main source of heat is from people ashore who may not even own boats. Is the bay/harbour theirs? Or legally does the 'community's' reach end at some easily determined extent? Is the community overreaching? And, if you are on a boat does that make you any less a member of the community? Who assigns these rights and determines whether or not you are a member, or as one poster said "a bum".

There is a huge 'us and them' mentality that always displays when complaints about anchor outs, live aboards or what have you exists.

There are some overly harsh judgements being made in this thread by posters about people they've never met, don't know and who's boats I presume they've never been on. Who ever said a boat must be pretty? As long as it floats, is not listing, shows the necessary lights and it's owner has not committed a crime, the owner has a right to be left alone.

First of all a lot of boats are shoal draft, so what. The problem is ot one boat, it's three boats. I don't know how many boaters rights to access this harbor they have affected, I just stated that I have had an issue. Apparently some others have as well. This isn't like the guy is out somewhere not interfering with anyones access to something, he's in the middle of a small working harbor. The google map photo as obviously taken before these boats arrived and in the dead of winter. There are only a couple of commercial fishing vessels in the photo, they're often rafted together two or three deep along the fishing docks and that takes up a lot of room. Because you must keep out of the way of these big seel fishing vessels going in and out the actual area to anchor is quite small. My only complaint is that I could not access the harbor when I wanted to because of these three boats. If they were there temporarily it would not have been an issue to me, but because they are more or less permanent it is an issue. I have made no value judgements about the character or lifestyle of these individuals. I am myself a full time cruiser. I hesitate to use the term Liveaboard, because that seems to imply that you are simply living on the boat not moving from place to place which is a bit different. The OP is a disabled veteran. I have a big problem with him being called a bum. I'm sure there are jerks in Oriental that may only be interesed in appearance. The fact was the day I tried to stop in there I was planning to buy some stuff at the local chandlery, have a look in the consignment shop to see if the had some stuff I needed, and have something to eat at one of the local eateries. It was a blustery day and I did not want to anchor outside of the breakwater and get soaked on the dinghy ride in. If you know Oriental harbor you know the bottom is soft and holding is not that great so it takes a bit of scope on the rode even though he water is quite shallow on a windy day. Consequently my business went somewhere else. So, do the local businesses have a legitimate complaint? I think they do. As to your comments about people making character judgements, even the OP made one regarding one of the other boats in the harbor. Perhaps he is just being lumped in with the folks he commented on because of the experiences of the locals with the other crew.

With regards to others coment about mooring fields, I don't think it would work out too well in Oriental because ther is no good place outside of the breakwater. Oriental is the sailing capital of NC (more sailboats in the immediate area than residents) because its often windy and there is not really any sheltered place to put one.

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

First of all a lot of boats are shoal draft, so what. The problem is ot one boat, it's three boats. I don't know how many boaters rights to access this harbor they have affected, I just stated that I have had an issue. Apparently some others have as well. This isn't like the guy is out somewhere not interfering with anyones access to something, he's in the middle of a small working harbor. The google map photo as obviously taken before these boats arrived and in the dead of winter. There are only a couple of commercial fishing vessels in the photo, they're often rafted together two or three deep along the fishing docks and that takes up a lot of room. Because you must keep out of the way of these big seel fishing vessels going in and out the actual area to anchor is quite small. My only complaint is that I could not access the harbor when I wanted to because of these three boats. If they were there temporarily it would not have been an issue to me, but because they are more or less permanent it is an issue. I have made no value judgements about the character or lifestyle of these individuals. I am myself a full time cruiser. I hesitate to use the term Liveaboard, because that seems to imply that you are simply living on the boat not moving from place to place which is a bit different. The OP is a disabled veteran. I have a big problem with him being called a bum. I'm sure there are jerks in Oriental that may only be interesed in appearance. The fact was the day I tried to stop in there I was planning to buy some stuff at the local chandlery, have a look in the consignment shop to see if the had some stuff I needed, and have something to eat at one of the local eateries. It was a blustery day and I did not want to anchor outside of the breakwater and get soaked on the dinghy ride in. If you know Oriental harbor you know the bottom is soft and holding is not that great so it takes a bit of scope on the rode even though he water is quite shallow on a windy day. Consequently my business went somewhere else. So, do the local businesses have a legitimate complaint? I think they do. As to your comments about people making character judgements, even the OP made one regarding one of the other boats in the harbor. Perhaps he is just being lumped in with the folks he commented on because of the experiences of the locals with the other crew.

With regards to others coment about mooring fields, I don't think it would work out too well in Oriental because ther is no good place outside of the breakwater. Oriental is the sailing capital of NC (more sailboats in the immediate area than residents) because its often windy and there is not really any sheltered place to put one.

My boat was not in the harbor in the winter, something that is even document on the website that started all this (after it was pointed out). But I can tell you the number of boats that were effected was very few, and I am sorry your was one of them. 99% of the time the harbor here is a ghost town. In the spring cruising season the harbor was full for about 2 weeks with 10 to 14 boats each day, and room for more So if you do the math and say most boats stay in the harbor 2 to 5 days my boat effected less then 10 others that could of pulled into it's spot in peek season. I can understand what you are saying though and this week when I move one of the other boats is moving as well. I never even wanted to move back into the harbor I like it on greens creek. What really bothers me is the way many have treated us in the last 4 months, and now unless we all watch the town could strip away rights that we should all enjoy. Like I said in that 4 month time not one person politely asked me to move. It's not like this is the DC metro area here as you know this town is smaller then most farming communities so it's not like finding me would have been that hard.

[Krogensailor]

I'm strident about defending my rights as an American Citizen. There is definitely a common thread that runs through all of these landlubber-boaters rights fights. Whether its about derelict boats or over control or gross mooring charges There is in fact a certain contempt towards people that think they can throw off the trappings of 'regular' society and go live off of the sea. While still in societies harbor. We/I as a sailor tend to be a bit aloof with towns I pass through. I enjoy your town, but I'm not interested in being a true part of it. And then there's just the greed aspect. We have a culture of municipal monetary gouging. I actually know a guy who sells software to municipality's so they can more efficiently empty their citizens pockets. Derelic boat's and rapacious adims aside. I looked at the racoon creek harbor map, and agree with the town. I can see allowing boaters to stay a few weeks as in vacationing in Oriental. Or perhaps setting up moorings in the cities harbor is a good idea in this kind of situation. All of that water going up and down the Nuese river must surely have anchoring opportunities available. And creeks abound. What I don't and am unwilling to accept is when the city outlaws anchoring period. Let the city choose and area for their harbor, they develop it and put in the mooring's. We who wish to be free can anchor outside of the harbor. Add to this the fact that some boats really do look like floating flop houses. Which fly's in the face of boating's history. Boatmen care about their vessels. We take pride in having things ship shape. What many of these 'derelicts' are really about is a manifestation of the homeless issue we have in our fair land. Between the NIMBY's and the militantly free, a meeting ground has to be found. Otherwise it will all turn into a plastic monetized Disney nightmare, like Orlando/Branson. It's late and I have a bulkhead to fit tomorrow. My suggestion? Don't stay in one place too long.